Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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Individual
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Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Individual »

I remember on e-Sangha, there was a guy that was a vociferous defender of homeopathy.

I just saw this article on Digg:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... thy-kills/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A baby girl in Australia died because her parents rejected regular medicine in favor of homeopathy. And the parents were convicted of manslaughter.
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Dan74
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Dan74 »

Hey, there is a few things wrong with this story..

First she wasn't killed by homeopathic medicine, but by the lack of conventional medical care.

And secondly the conviction for manslaughter was not because they gave her homeopathic treatment but because they neglected the advice they were given. Homeopathy may well be an appropriate remedy for some conditions. What makes this case so sad was that when it was clear that what they were doing was not working, they still persevered. Also the parents never realized that the little girl's life was in danger. They thought they still had time to try their remedies...

It's rarely so clear-cut...

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Cittasanto
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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She died due to complications with her condition which hadn't been treated appropriately, Homeopathy didn't kill her neglect did!

if this was a case of the treatment itself being the cause of death then I would agree more with you. Homeopathy may be unscientific, but water only kills by drowning.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Individual
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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Manapa wrote:She died due to complications with her condition which hadn't been treated appropriately, Homeopathy didn't kill her neglect did!

if this was a case of the treatment itself being the cause of death then I would agree more with you. Homeopathy may be unscientific, but water only kills by drowning.
Zicam, a homeopathic treatment for colds, was recently shown to harm a person's sense of smell and was pulled from the shelves by the FDA.

The FDA claimed last year that 800 different ingredients used in homepathic medicines have harmful side-effects:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD98SK27G0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Cittasanto
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Cittasanto »

now if you had used this, Like I said I would of agreed more with you, but I wouldn't of said this was a homeopathic treatment as it is far more concentrated than normal, 2/100 parts instead of 1/1000000 or less, and this case was a misuse of the term homeopathic medicine, in my understanding of the treatment.

but anything which is claimed as a medicine whether scientific or not should be tested, if not for public safety, then for public knowledge of actual effectiveness, even if the effect is placebo.

Just curious have you ever watched the Penn&Teller show Bullshit? don't think it is still aired but there are some great episodes which deal with this phoney sudoscience, and paranormal garbage, but the other topics are damn good too, the experiments are hysterical.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Annapurna
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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Individual wrote:
Manapa wrote:She died due to complications with her condition which hadn't been treated appropriately, Homeopathy didn't kill her neglect did!

if this was a case of the treatment itself being the cause of death then I would agree more with you. Homeopathy may be unscientific, but water only kills by drowning.
Zicam, a homeopathic treatment for colds, was recently shown to harm a person's sense of smell and was pulled from the shelves by the FDA.

The FDA claimed last year that 800 different ingredients used in homepathic medicines have harmful side-effects:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD98SK27G0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ANY homeopathic remedy, given to a healthy person, will cause "Test" symptoms. Symptoms of a disease.

Example: Arsenic is poisonous. When somebody is poisoned with arsenic, he develops typical symptoms such as:

Great anxiety and restlessness, absolute weakness, profound sweats, tachycardy, weightloss, etc.

It is not easy to cure...

However, if you apply a high potency of Arsenic, like D30 or 200, the symptoms begin to vanish within an hour, and the healing process begins through an increased detoxification.

Homeopathy is stunning in the hands of an experienced homeopath, and dangerous for laypeople.

Sort of like a surgeons scalpell,-don't try to operate if you have no skills.

Unfortunately some people don't have enough experience to know when to use which tool, but then don't blame the tool, blame the 'fool'.

(Of course they're no fools. :smile: , they just don't have enough knowledge, and we can all err... )

A good craftsman blames himself, not the tool.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Annapurna »

Also, some people become obsessed with a method, and fanatical.

That's always dangerous, because they become rigid and inflexible. A biased mind cannot grasp reality.

To use surgery for a cold would be foolish.

In other cases it would be foolish to use homeopathy.
Individual
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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Annabel wrote: ANY homeopathic remedy, given to a healthy person, will cause "Test" symptoms. Symptoms of a disease.
Some of it will, but much of it is diluted so much by water that it has virtually no effect on a person, whatsoever, apart from being a placebo.
Annabel wrote: However, if you apply a high potency of Arsenic, like D30 or 200, the symptoms begin to vanish within an hour, and the healing process begins through an increased detoxification.

Homeopathy is stunning in the hands of an experienced homeopath, and dangerous for laypeople.
What do you mean by "detoxification"? Snake oil salesmen use words like this without really clarifying: What exactly is the specific mechanism behind homeopathy and why has it not been verified by science?
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Ben
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Ben »

Any confidence in the ability of homeopathy to treat anything except the income stream of the 'practitioner' would be appropriately treated by watching Richard Dawkins' excellent series The enemies of reason
Dawkins criticizes the growing field of alternative medicine which does not pass the same objective and statistical rigour as scientifically derived treatments using controlled double-blind studies. Without verifiable evidence, alternative therapies must rely on biased anecdotes and word of mouth to perpetuate. Dawkins observes these treatments have fanciful rationales and rituals behind them, with many alternative treatments employing pseudoscientific jargon such as "energy", "vibration" or "quantum theory" to give themselves greater credence to patients.

Homeopathy is singled out as an example of a mainstream alternative medicine that has public support and taxpayer funding through the National Health Service. Dawkins explains that the rationale behind it is unfounded and demonstrates that the magnitude of dilution required is so great the patient is practically imbibing pure water. This is illustrated by the typical homeopathic dilution of 30C (1:10030, that is thirty steps of dilution by 1% each time), which requires a drop of active ingredient dissolved in a body of water greater than the whole ocean.[5] Dawkins cites a 2005 meta-analysis by The Lancet that concludes that homeopathy has no consistently demonstrable effect on health.[6]
-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemie ... th_Service" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Frankly, I agree with the court's decision. I've seen too many other similar examples of adults killing their children through their own stupidity and ignorance.
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Ben
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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Individual wrote:
Annabel wrote: ANY homeopathic remedy, given to a healthy person, will cause "Test" symptoms. Symptoms of a disease.
Some of it will, but much of it is diluted so much by water that it has virtually no effect on a person, whatsoever, apart from being a placebo.
Annabel wrote: However, if you apply a high potency of Arsenic, like D30 or 200, the symptoms begin to vanish within an hour, and the healing process begins through an increased detoxification.

Homeopathy is stunning in the hands of an experienced homeopath, and dangerous for laypeople.
What do you mean by "detoxification"? Snake oil salesmen use words like this without really clarifying: What exactly is the specific mechanism behind homeopathy and why has it not been verified by science?
Some of it will, but much of it is diluted so much by water that it has virtually no effect on a person, whatsoever, apart from being a placebo.
Hi, Indi, I have to admit that my languageskills are insufficient to explain the thoughts that Samuel Hahnemann had when he pondered about the reasons for sickness and how to best cure them.

He was a totally unique pioneer, way ahead of his time, and he is also ahead of us, because we still don't know exactly WHY it works. Only THAT it works.

We have countless evidence for it, amongst them first class doctors.

I thought I will give you 2 links, in which your questions are adressed by more eloquent people than me, and also quote some:


Just like it is for some people difficult to understand rebirth and karma,it is for others equally difficult to understand Einsteins relativity theory, calculus, or space flight.


That homeopathy is a serious, albeit alternative method, is illuminated by the vita of those 4 Physicians, who are certainly not falling into the category" Snake-oil charlatan", on the contrary. :anjali:

Dr. James Tyler Kent. Dr. James Tyler Kent was born in 1849, a native of woodhull, new York. He graduated from Electic Medical institute, cincinnati, ohio in 1871 and the Homeopathic medical college of missouri, St. Louis, where he was awarded the Diploma in 1889. He was Professor of Anatomy in the American Medical College St. Louis, 1877-78 about which time his attention was forcibly directed to Homeopathy through the serious illness of his wife, whose case refused to yield to any other treatment except Homeopathic. He then became a careful student of Hahnemann's Organon which resulted in his complete conversion to Homeopathy. He was one of the ablest teachers and exponents of the Homeopathic school in America. His contribution to the Homeopathic literature are known by their strength rather than their length and include more prominently his Repertory, Homeopathic Philosophy, Lectures on Materia Medica and Lesser Writings. Lectures on MM Lectures on Philosophy How to study Repertory Lesser Writing



Dr. Hering Dr. Constantine Hering was born on 1st Jan. 1800 in Oschath in Saxony. He studied Medicine and then at the request of his teacher Dr. Henrich Robbi studied Homeopathy in order to write a book against Homeopathy. But since his infected hand which was to have been amputated was healed by Homeopathy, he became converted to Homeopathy and became one of the most famous Homeopaths. After getting his degree from Woodsburg he went to Surinam on an expedition. There he extracted the poison of the Lachesis snake and proved it. From then on he practised, taught and wrote on Homeopathy for the rest of his life, so much so, that Hahnemann called him as one of his 'most efficient disciples' and 'as the truest and most zealous propagator of our art.' When he died on July 23rd 1880 his friend Dr. Nickle said of him "He who never rested, rests". Guiding Symptoms The Homeopathic Domestic Physician Model Cures Condensed Materia Medica Analytical Repertory of the mind

Dr. Sircar Dr. Mahendra Lal Sircar, C, I .E" M.D.. D. L., was not only the greatest Homeopath of his time in India, but also a great scientist. He was born on Nov. 2, 1833 in Paikpara, near Howrah. He appeared at the M.D. Examination in 1863 and came out first. He devoted his life wholly to the propagation of the principles of Homeopathy. The Calcutta Journal of Medicine, edited by him, was started in Jan. 1868 for this purpose. In the field of physical science, Dr. Sircar has made great contributions and was' a pioneer of .scientific research in India. Dr. J. C. Bose and Dr. P. C. Ray were also inspired by him. Recurrent malarial fever and bronchial asthma clouded the evening of his life and he died on Feb. 23, 1904.


Boger Prominent as a physician and author of a number of medical text - books, Dr.Boger came to Parkersburg U.S.A. in 1888 and had since been engaged in the practice of medicine. He graduated from the Philadephia College of Medicine.He later studied at the Hahnemann Homeopathic Medical College in Philadelphia, from which also he graduated. During his long career in medical practice and research, Boger contributed important scientific text-books including the Synoptic Key of the Materia Medica addition to his authorship of a number o" articles for medical journals. His authorship of several scientific textbooks, his analysis and construction of Repertory, his lively translation of several medical books from notable German authors and his indefatigable labour for the production of orginal works, like the Times of the Remedies and Moon phases and his provings of Samarskite etc. made him universally recognised as an author and physician of great eminence. Dr. Boger passed away on 2nd Sep, 1935, at the age of 74. Synoptic Key to MM BB Characteristic MM Times Of Remedies & moon phases Studies in the philosophy of Healing Study of MM and Case taking.

It is highly unlikely, that 4 men of many more, used to scientific work, particularly in medicine, would have collective partial benightedness and fall prey to quackery and yet at the same time continue to do scientific work in other fields.

I also had lifelong diseases vanishing with homeopathy, and am since a follower of this method.

I just tried it out.

I can live with it when homeopathy is not accepted, btw, :smile:

(Just so long I have it.... :popcorn: )

Animals heal with homeopathy just like we do.

The horseclub in my town treats horses with homeopathy, with excellent results.

Of course also with other methods, and I find it important to know when which method works the best.

Here is the link. Only one. I hope you can find something in it that answers your questions.
http://www.skeptics.org.uk/article.php? ... opathy.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mawkish1983
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

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I have seen absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that suggests homeopathy is a viable medical tool. If you want to believe in magic, that's fine :) but please don't dress it up as anything else.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Guy »

The pharmaceutical industry has gone to great lengths throughout history to spread propaganda to discredit and defame homeopathic practitioners since the beginning of the allopathic approach. Not only that, but the original pharmacists were NOT health professionals, but mining and oil professionals. Don't get me wrong, I think there have been a lot of benefits that have come with modern medicine, especially in the area of emergency surgery. If someone breaks an arm and needs their bone set back in place, great! ...bring on the modern medical approach. If someone needs a new heart, great! ...many lives have been saved through surgical procedures that were not possible in the past. However, a lot of the chemicals that are used in the area of "modern medicine" are very questionable. For example, did you know that the chemical paracetamol, consumed by millions of people daily for something as minor as a headache, is a derivitive of petroleum by-products? It's no wonder when you consider who began "Big Pharma".

Don't believe everything you hear from the news or seemingly authoritative sources such as FDA. The FDA, along side other organisations, are trying to push international laws to make vitamins in food illegal as well as many other ridiculous changes to global standards for what we put in our bodies (Research "Codex Alimentarius" for more info on this controversial topic).
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Annapurna
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Annapurna »

Mawkish1983 wrote:I have seen absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever that suggests homeopathy is a viable medical tool. If you want to believe in magic, that's fine :) but please don't dress it up as anything else.
Are you a practising Buddhist, Mawkish?

If yes, have you seen any scientific evidence for rebirth and karma?

:anjali:
Mawkish1983
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Annabel wrote:have you seen any scientific evidence for rebirth and karma?
Changing the subject?

I can see the benefit of basing one's life around what the Buddha taught. As the OP article makes clear: basing one's life around homeopathy can proove fatal. Literally.

<shrugs> it's your call really :) just please don't try to dress homeopathy up as science. It's not science, it's witchcraft, magic, whatever you want to call it. Not science.
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Annapurna
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Post by Annapurna »

No, Mawkish, I'm not trying to "dress up" homeopathy as anything. Why would I want to do that?

I am just sharing experience with you, because I am obliged to the truth.

I am also not "changing the subject. Try not to go ad hominem, please.

Since you based your dismissal of homeopathy on a lack of scientific evidence, I simply showed you, that " a lack of evidence" is irrelevant to you when it comes to Buddhism.

Let's return to medicine now ,friend..

Let's assume that you have a loved one with a braintumor..

Would you want a carpenter or butcher to do the surgery, or a brain specialist?

Likewise,if your child is ill, very ill, you can't treat it yourself with homeopathy.

You need a specialist.

To try it yourself without skills is utterly stupid and tragic.

But can you really blame the method for the mistakes human beings make applying it?


You need a pilot to fly a jumbo jet, not some parent, you need a brainsurgeon to remove a tumor, and not some parent, you need a homeopath to treat a disease properly, not some wellmeaning, but fanatical, and ignorant parent.

It's as simple as that.

Homeopathy is an empiric traditional method, and runs in the same tracks as acupuncture, Tibetan medicine and Ayurveda, albeit younger..

Do you want to dismiss those as witchcraft as well?
I can see the benefit of basing one's life around what the Buddha taught.
Yes. Me too. And I can also look back at the benefits homeopathy remedies have had upon me and upon others, as I work with them since 20 years now, also with animals.

The healings are also not Placebo effects, because those would vanish after ~ 6 weeks.

I don't want to convert you,Mawkish,don't get me wrong. I only see it with sadness that you should be so biased towards a method that you haven't studied in detail nor tried. I would see our exchange of thoughts as successful, if you could agree: I can't pass a final judgement beause I didn't study the matter in depth, nor took anything myself.

That would be fair, don't you think, Mawkish?

Thank you for thinking so deeply about it.

Anna :anjali:
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