When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

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When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:28 pm

When do you believe or know when its ok to break the precept of jot lying. I say know in case someone claims enlightenment since Buddhism is very well organised these days, the knowle is acsesible to veryone who is interested, therefore if Buddhist teachings are true there could be enlightened Buddhists on this forum.

Anyway, what about people break and entering illegally in some chicken farms and exposing the truth about chickens living in horrible conditions. If you are interested in information on animal cruelty you can google PETA, wich stands for: People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals. That's form of a deception, the way they obtain evidence. What about an unercover police who with lies save people's lives? Like a policeman posing as a hitmen and ends up saving someone?

What about police integrity or the office of the police ombudsmen? They have to sometimes do undercover work in order to catch police who might be breaking the law themselves?

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:05 pm

By the way my answer is: It's always ok or right to lie, but its not always good. Wrong is nothing, everything is right but there is good and evil.

So the question should be: When is it good to lie?
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:12 pm

Ervin wrote:By the way my answer is: It's always ok or right to lie, but its not always good. Wrong is nothing, everything is right but there is good and evil.

So the question should be: When is it good to lie?


This doesn't make a great deal of sense, Ervin.
Perhaps you'd like to explain it.
Thanks

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:34 pm

If its wrong to kill then how would you survive? Why is it ok or right to kill an animal for food but its not right to kill a human for food? Some people say that even plants feel pain because of their reactions to outside stimuli.

There is law of the land you live in and it doesn't and at this stage can't have in place a policy that protects health and safety of all living beings.

There fore there is no right or wrong in morality and ethics, but there is good and evil.

Evil action would be killing for o other reason but enjoyment for instance, but its not wrong. Are people fishing tor fun only doing evil. People who have no need for fishing. They actually spend lots of money on equipment and boats and what not.
How about people hunting for fun?

There are people who think there is nothing wrong with that. Others think that's as bad as murder. It all depends on whom you talk to and in wich era do you live

So called wrong constantly changes.

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:34 pm

When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

Well said, sir

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

to speak that which is not true? never, unless it is unwittingly done. i.e. when you do not know or accidentally say something incorrect.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:14 pm

There's certainly no living the holy life for those who would tell a lie, even in jest.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby cooran » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:20 pm

Good question, Ervin! I think using the term ''O.K.'' in the title of the thread can be confusing. Of course, we know that lying is a breach of the Precept and will have its kammic result. We know that we may lie in certain circumstances – e.g. to save our own life or the lives of our children. But it is never ''O.K.'' and will always have kammic consequences.

As well, lying is a slippery slope if done frequently. It leads to more lying and excuses to justify it.

There has been lots of previous discussion in this thread, which you may find useful.
Is it ever O.K. to lie?
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8273

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:32 pm

The disciple should associate with a wise friend,
who detects and censures one's faults,
and who points out virtues
as a guide tells of buried treasures.
There is happiness, not woe,
to one who associates with such an intelligent friend.

Dhammapada, VI, (76)
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby manas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:51 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

to speak that which is not true? never, unless it is unwittingly done. i.e. when you do not know or accidentally say something incorrect.


Hi cittasanto,

I can think of a few other instances, for example if one's life or another's is at stake. I agree that lying is an awful practice, but if it could save a life, or save someone from torture, or some other horrible situation...in those particular instances, as a temporary measure, why not?

If some brutal government had high voltage wires strapped over sensitive parts of my body, and if lying could end the agony, I would lie - so long as my lying did not endanger the lives or wellbeing of others, that is. Otherwise, I hope I'd be able to endure it. But can you see my point? It's so easy, from our current state of comfort, to condemn all lying, in all circumstances...

:anjali:
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby pegembara » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:09 am

Hypothetical scenario:

A child is in a burning building with his mother and refuses to leave the building unless he knows his mother is safe. Is it OK to lie that the mother is already saved to get him to come out?

You are giving refuge to a family hiding from persecution. Some extremist comes asking if you know of any persons hiding in the area and a truthful answer would be disastrous for all concerned.

Since actions have consequences, perhaps the consequences of lying is preferable to the alternatives.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:41 am

Precepts is just a mindful guidance.
Basic Buddhism "Good action is the action that benefits one self and others".
I always squashed mosquito without feeling any remorse because it makes my life easier at the same time wishing the dead mosquito to take a better rebirth.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:50 am

Hi Barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:Precepts is just a mindful guidance.
Basic Buddhism "Good action is the action that benefits one self and others".
I always squashed mosquito without feeling any remorse because it makes my life easier at the same time wishing the dead mosquito to take a better rebirth.

Is this the "self" and the "I" that the precepts, and other practices such as dana and reverence, help us to drop? :thinking:

:anjali:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:05 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

to speak that which is not true? never, unless it is unwittingly done. i.e. when you do not know or accidentally say something incorrect.

lol, he meant lying down to get a nap

Regards
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:23 am

manas wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

to speak that which is not true? never, unless it is unwittingly done. i.e. when you do not know or accidentally say something incorrect.


Hi cittasanto,

I can think of a few other instances, for example if one's life or another's is at stake. I agree that lying is an awful practice, but if it could save a life, or save someone from torture, or some other horrible situation...in those particular instances, as a temporary measure, why not?

If some brutal government had high voltage wires strapped over sensitive parts of my body, and if lying could end the agony, I would lie - so long as my lying did not endanger the lives or wellbeing of others, that is. Otherwise, I hope I'd be able to endure it. But can you see my point? It's so easy, from our current state of comfort, to condemn all lying, in all circumstances...

:anjali:

it could easily be argued that the Buddha did not have our level of comfort, nor did his disciples.

it is easy to come up with scenarios where it would be appropriate to lie, but the simple truth of the matter is we don't know what we would do, or how effective it would be.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:27 am

whynotme wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:

to speak that which is not true? never, unless it is unwittingly done. i.e. when you do not know or accidentally say something incorrect.

lol, he meant lying down to get a nap

Regards

I know what bhante meant.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:24 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:Precepts is just a mindful guidance.
Basic Buddhism "Good action is the action that benefits one self and others".
I always squashed mosquito without feeling any remorse because it makes my life easier at the same time wishing the dead mosquito to take a better rebirth.

Is this the "self" and the "I" that the precepts, and other practices such as dana and reverence, help us to drop? :thinking:

:anjali:
Mike


Hi Mike,

Thanks for reminding me about the self-annihilation. What will i do is always inspire by what will i get, it's just too hard to go against the natural tendency of my mind and pretend not to see the self.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Caraka » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Ethical issues are not so easy, like always telling the truth. Bottom pitt, there is no need to be stupid. E.g. telling a truth that leads to damage of other beings.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:17 pm

Caraka wrote:Ethical issues are not so easy, like always telling the truth. Bottom pitt, there is no need to be stupid. E.g. telling a truth that leads to damage of other beings.

there is telling a deliberate lie and being non-discerning. just because you only speak that which is true doesn't mean you say everything at all times. picking the right time is a big part of being truthful.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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