A discussion of bodhi

[vinasp]

Hi cittaanurakkho,

Thank you for your detailed reply.

vincent: "So (sam)bodhi [awakening] is only a temporary experience?"

cittaanurakkho: "As I understand it, yes a one time experience."

By 'temporary' I meant that it does not last, but disappears. This made no sense to me
but it is what I thought you were saying, this was probably my mistake.
I agree that sambodhi (awakening) is cognitive and is a one-time event.

This is my understanding of the four noble truths:

They are a complicated 'device' which probably does not survive the attempt to translate
them into English. They were understood in two different ways by puthujjana's and noble
disciples. The difference is in the time-scale. For the puthujjana: three lifetimes.
For the noble disciple: three successive states of mind.
The first four knowledges represent the attainment of right view, and entry into the
noble eightfold path.
The next four knowledges are processes through which the progress in doing what needs
to be done, is monitored, this is the noble eightfold path, and the process of
transformation.
The last four knowledges represent the knowledge that the path has been completed,
that what had to be done, has been done.

On the MN 19 passage:

"I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress..."

This is his seeing the noble eightfold path, his attaining of right view, his becoming
a noble one, a stream enterer.

"These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations."

This is the same thing but with the asava's instead of suffering. The unenlightened
mind is suffering. The asava's are the unenlightened mind. Both mean 'existing as a self'.

The release from the asava's is enlightenment, nibbana, the extinguishing of selfhood.

The Problem.

I think that every time that they describe the same thing from another point of view,
you see extra stages. They use these multiple descriptions to make connections between
different aspects of the teachings.
The four noble truths are one description of the path. The elimination of the asava's
is another description of the path. Dependent Origination is another description of the
path. These are all describing the same thing from a different angle.

Quote: "The whole process lasted for about 4 hours (1 watch = 4 hours) for the Buddha."

I doubt this, Yamaka in SN 22.85 goes from a puthujjana to a stream enterer and on to
an arahant, in the space of about five minutes.

I think your interpretation is wrong, but I cannot see where you have gone astray.
Perhaps something I have said in this post may help. If not, this thread is very
interesting, and if it continues, then something might turn up.

I will explain my understanding of nibbana in another post, since this one is already
rather long!

Kind regards, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

From a post by Dmytro:

"Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit."

How does one give gifts to a dead person?

Perhaps 'life's ending' should not be understood here in a literal way.

Regards, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

The Buddha's passing away, from DN 16:

"Then the Blessed One, emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, entered the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. Emerging from that, he entered the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the fourth jhana... the third... the second... the first jhana. Emerging from the first jhana he entered the second... the third... the fourth jhana. Emerging from the fourth jhana, he immediately was totally Unbound."

One can only accept this as true if one believes that Ven. Anuruddha really did possess
psychic powers, and correctly discerned the Buddha's states of mind.

My own opinion is that this cannot be true. Non-temporary liberation is continuous, it
cannot become temporary liberation again. So all these states of mind are no longer
possible for an Arahant or a Tathagata.

What, then, can this passage mean? I think that it is intended to show the Buddha's
search for enlightenment. The first series of nine states, up and back down, represent
temporary liberations. The Buddha explored these and concluded that they were not what
he was looking for. Then he found the noble eightfold path, which is non-temporary
liberation. This is represented by the ascent through the four jhana's, ending with
enlightenment.

Regards, Vincent.

[cittaanurakkho]

Nirodha isn't a thing which is conditioned; it refers to the cessation of stress, as you've mentioned. So "cessation of stress", as an experience, is a conditioned one, requiring the Eightfold Path. So far so good.

I did not say that "Nirodha isn't a thing which is conditioned", please read carefully.

[Assaji]

Hi Vincent,

"Again, consider one who likewise abides seeing the impermanence of the eye, conscious of it, aware of it, at all times, continually, without a break, working it mentally, fathoming it by wisdom; and for him the cankers’ ending and life’s ending are at the same time, not one before and one after; this, monks, is the second person worthy of offerings, worthy of gifts, worthy of oblations, the world’s peerless field for merit."

How does one give gifts to a dead person?

This one of the types of Noble Persons - one who will attain Nibbana without remainder at the end of life.
Such person can be pretty much alive.

Regards, Dmytro

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

I think that I have seen the main source of the confusion around the four noble truths.

"This noble truth of the cessation of suffering has been realized: ..."[BB, CDB, SN 56.11]

This is NOT saying that the cessation of suffering has been realized. The noble
truth of the cessation of suffering has already been defined as:

"Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the
remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, ..."

So the first line quoted above is saying that the cessation of craving has been realized.

In fact, the entire reason for the complex presentation of the truths is to avoid
ever saying that the cessation of suffering has been realised by one still living.

[But just because they do not say it, does not mean that it is not true.]

Regards, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Some more thoughts about the topic in the previous post.

There are two kinds of suffering, physical and mental. The mental suffering does cease
with awakening, but the arahant is still liable to physical suffering.

The Worldlings Understanding of the Four Truths.

In the context of the truths, suffering is the five clinging aggregates. These
are understood in a literal way by worldlings, as the actual body and mind, for the
duration of this life, so both physical and mental suffering are included.

The noble eightfold path leads to the cessation of mental suffering at awakening, and
also leads, many years later, to the cessation of physical suffering when the arahant
passes away.

For the worldling, this life and its suffering is the result of craving in the previous
life. And craving in this life will result in the next life and its suffering.

The suffering of this life, has its origin in the craving of ones last life.
The craving in this life will result in suffering in ones next life.

So for a worldling, present suffering is not due to present craving, but due to past
craving. And present craving does not result in present suffering, but future suffering.

Remember, tanha is the 'thirst' which leads to renewed existence. It is not any kind of
desire for present things.

When the second truth says that craving is the origin of suffering, it does not mean
that present craving is the cause of present suffering, it means that present suffering
is caused by past craving, or that present craving will result in future suffering.

So, the worldlings understanding of the truths is just like his understanding of
dependent origination - the 'three lifetimes' model.

The second and third truths are just simplified versions of dependent origination.

There is another way to understand the four noble truths which is discovered by every
noble disciple.

Regards, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Is it possible to progress beyond the four noble truths?

We see that 'what needs to be done', in relation to the second truth, is that craving
(the origin of suffering) must be abandoned.

We see that 'what needs to be done', in relation to the third truth, is that the
cessation of craving must be achieved (in order for suffering to cease).

So, one would have to understand craving in order to bring about its cessation.
One would need to know how craving arises and what arises from craving. It is not
possible for just craving, on its own, to cease.

The stream enterer is said to have 'penetrated' the four truths, but he is also said
to have understood Dependent Arising, and cessation.

In AN 3.61 there is a version of the four noble truths in which the second truth is
given as the DO formula with 12 items arising. Then the third truth is given as the DO
formula with 12 items ceasing. The first and the fourth truths are the same as in the
normal version.

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, in order to bring about the cessation of craving, one would have to go beyond what
is said in the four truths, and understand dependent origination/cessation.

Regards, Vincent.

[tiltbillings]

So, in order to bring about the cessation of craving, one would have to go beyond what
is said in the four truths, and understand dependent origination/cessation.

They are one and the same.

[vinasp]

Hi tilt,

Quote: "They are one and the same."

If you mean two descriptions of the same thing, then I agree.

I see the truths as a concise summary of the whole path, A framework, the scope of which,
covers the entire path.

But for the details one needs to turn to dependent origination.

Once one has understood the framework of the four truths, then there is nothing more
that one can learn from them. But as one progresses one is still within the scope of
the truths.

What else, do you think needs to cease, in order for craving to cease?
And what else ceases as a result of the cessation of craving?

Regards, Vincent.

[tiltbillings]

But for the details one needs to turn to dependent origination.

interdependent conditionality is part of the actual structure of the FNT, and what do think is entailed in the Eightfold Path?

[vinasp]

Hi tilt,

Vincent: "But for the details one needs to turn to dependent origination."

tilt: "interdependent conditionality is part of the actual structure of the FNT, and what do think is entailed in the Eightfold Path?"

I am not sure if I understand your response here.

Perhaps what I meant was that one can ignore the teaching of the truths, and use DO
instead.

If you say that dependent origination/cessation is still the four truths, then this
just confirms my point. The four truths and DO are two descriptions of the same thing.

Regards, Vincent.

[tiltbillings]

The four truths and DO are two descriptions of the same thing.

Like a number of things in the Buddha's teachings.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here is an interesting puzzle:

In SN 56.14 we find a version of the four noble truths, in which the first truth is
just: "the six internal sense bases." All the rest is the same as in the standard version.

So suffering is the six internal sense bases. And the origin of suffering is 'this craving
which leads to renewed existence ...'. So craving is the origin of the six internal sense
bases.

But in DO, craving depends on feeling, which depends on contact, which depends on the
six internal sense bases.

How, then, can craving be the origin of the six internal sense bases?

Regards, Vincent.

[mikenz66]

See:
Wheel 15, Dependent Origination (Paticca Samuppada) by Piyadassi Thera
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh015-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One may justifiably be inclined to pose the question: Why did the Buddha not set forth the doctrine of dependent origination in his first discourse, [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .harv.html] the sermon delivered to the five ascetics, his erstwhile companions, at Benares? The answer is this: the main points discussed in that all-important sermon are the Four Noble Truths: suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the way to the cessation of suffering, the Noble Eightfold Path. There is no statement in it about dependent origination; but one who understands the philosophical and doctrinal significance of dependent origination certainly understands that the twelvefold paticca-samuppada, dependent origination, both in its order of arising and ceasing (anuloma and patiloma), is included in the Four Noble Truths.

The paticca-samuppada in its order of arising manifests the process of becoming (bhava), in other words, the appearance of suffering (dukkha, the first truth); and how this process of becoming or suffering is conditioned (dukkha-samudaya, the second truth). In its order of ceasing the paticca-samuppada makes plain the cessation of this becoming, this suffering (dukkha-nirodha, the third truth), and how it ceases (dukkha-nirodha-gamini patipada, the fourth truth). The Buddha-word with regard to this fact appears in the Anguttara Nikaya thus:

“And what, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of suffering? Dependent on ignorance arise volitional formations; dependent on volitional formations, consciousness; dependent on consciousness, mentality-materiality (mental and physical combination); dependent on mentality-materiality, the sixfold base (the five physical sense organs and consciousness as the sixth); dependent on the sixfold base, contact; dependent on contact, feeling; dependent on feeling, craving; dependent on craving, clinging; dependent on clinging, the process of becoming (rebirth); dependent on the process of becoming, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair come to pass. Thus does the whole mass of suffering arise. This, monks, is called the noble truth of the origination of suffering.

“And what, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering? Through the entire cessation of ignorance cease volitional formations; through the cessation of volitional formations, consciousness … (and so on) … the cessation of the whole mass of suffering. This, monks, is called the cessation of suffering.”
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is now abundantly clear from the foregoing that the paticca-samuppada, with its twelve factors, is the teaching of the Buddha and not, as some are inclined to think, the work of some writers on the Dhamma of later times. It is unreasonable, even dangerous, to rush to conclusions without fully understanding the significance of the paticca-samuppada.

Mike