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When do you believe or know that its ok to lie? - Dhamma Wheel

When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Ervin
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When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:28 pm

When do you believe or know when its ok to break the precept of jot lying. I say know in case someone claims enlightenment since Buddhism is very well organised these days, the knowle is acsesible to veryone who is interested, therefore if Buddhist teachings are true there could be enlightened Buddhists on this forum.

Anyway, what about people break and entering illegally in some chicken farms and exposing the truth about chickens living in horrible conditions. If you are interested in information on animal cruelty you can google PETA, wich stands for: People For The Ethical Treatment Of Animals. That's form of a deception, the way they obtain evidence. What about an unercover police who with lies save people's lives? Like a policeman posing as a hitmen and ends up saving someone?

What about police integrity or the office of the police ombudsmen? They have to sometimes do undercover work in order to catch police who might be breaking the law themselves?

Thoughts

Ervin
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:05 pm

By the way my answer is: It's always ok or right to lie, but its not always good. Wrong is nothing, everything is right but there is good and evil.

So the question should be: When is it good to lie?

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Ben
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:12 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Ervin
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:34 pm

If its wrong to kill then how would you survive? Why is it ok or right to kill an animal for food but its not right to kill a human for food? Some people say that even plants feel pain because of their reactions to outside stimuli.

There is law of the land you live in and it doesn't and at this stage can't have in place a policy that protects health and safety of all living beings.

There fore there is no right or wrong in morality and ethics, but there is good and evil.

Evil action would be killing for o other reason but enjoyment for instance, but its not wrong. Are people fishing tor fun only doing evil. People who have no need for fishing. They actually spend lots of money on equipment and boats and what not.
How about people hunting for fun?

There are people who think there is nothing wrong with that. Others think that's as bad as murder. It all depends on whom you talk to and in wich era do you live

So called wrong constantly changes.

Thanks

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:34 pm

When you're tired and need a rest, its OK to lie. :zzz:
• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

whynotme
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:42 pm

Please stop following me

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Cittasanto
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:55 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby daverupa » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:14 pm

There's certainly no living the holy life for those who would tell a lie, even in jest.

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cooran
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby cooran » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:20 pm

Good question, Ervin! I think using the term ''O.K.'' in the title of the thread can be confusing. Of course, we know that lying is a breach of the Precept and will have its kammic result. We know that we may lie in certain circumstances – e.g. to save our own life or the lives of our children. But it is never ''O.K.'' and will always have kammic consequences.

As well, lying is a slippery slope if done frequently. It leads to more lying and excuses to justify it.

There has been lots of previous discussion in this thread, which you may find useful.
Is it ever O.K. to lie?
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8273

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Ben » Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:32 pm

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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manas
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby manas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:51 am

Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

pegembara
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby pegembara » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:09 am

Hypothetical scenario:

A child is in a burning building with his mother and refuses to leave the building unless he knows his mother is safe. Is it OK to lie that the mother is already saved to get him to come out?

You are giving refuge to a family hiding from persecution. Some extremist comes asking if you know of any persons hiding in the area and a truthful answer would be disastrous for all concerned.

Since actions have consequences, perhaps the consequences of lying is preferable to the alternatives.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

barcsimalsi
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:41 am

Precepts is just a mindful guidance.
Basic Buddhism "Good action is the action that benefits one self and others".
I always squashed mosquito without feeling any remorse because it makes my life easier at the same time wishing the dead mosquito to take a better rebirth.

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mikenz66
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:50 am


whynotme
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:05 am

Please stop following me

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Cittasanto
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:23 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:27 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

barcsimalsi
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:33 am

Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:24 am


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Caraka
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Caraka » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Ethical issues are not so easy, like always telling the truth. Bottom pitt, there is no need to be stupid. E.g. telling a truth that leads to damage of other beings.

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Cittasanto
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:17 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.


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