When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby waimengwan » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:42 pm

I like what Confucius said about lying he said 'If you are under duress it is ok to lie' in the context if someone would kill you for not agreeing with them it might be alright to lie.

If a lie saves someone or a sentient being lie :), like if the hunter ask where did the deer go?
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Caraka » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:09 pm

there is telling a deliberate lie and being non-discerning. just because you only speak that which is true doesn't mean you say everything at all times. picking the right time is a big part of being truthful.


This reminds me of a old saying my grandmother told me about. 'Talking is silver, but silence is gold' :tongue:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Buckwheat » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:30 pm

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Lying always has a kammic consequence. You may not understand the magnitude of that consequence, so any lie under any conditions is very risky behavior. The Buddha stressed repeatedly that lying has very serious kammic consequences. The Buddha did not lie to save lives, to tell jokes, or as a "teacheing tool". He never condoned lying in any form (that I know of), so why does one think they know better than the Buddha?

I lie. Unfortunately, I do. It happens. I slip up and out pops a little lie. Sometimes out of jest. Sometimes to avoid an uncomfortable situation. But let us at least be honest with ourselves that there will be a kammic consequence, the Buddha was very straightforward in his advice on lying, and it is an unwholesome activity that the wise do not perform.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:39 pm

Seeing the two sides here shows (unlike what I have said before) that the fifth precept is not the only one people can take as optional.

we can unintentionally tell a lie out of a lack of thinking, but that is hardly the same as being deliberately misleading.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:19 pm

Hi Barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:Thanks for reminding me about the self-annihilation. What will i do is always inspire by what will i get, it's just too hard to go against the natural tendency of my mind and pretend not to see the self.

I don't think it's a matter of "self-annihilation" or "pretend not to see the self". As I understand it, it's a matter of seeing through concepts such as self.

:anjali:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:25 am

Buckwheat wrote:If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Lying always has a kammic consequence. You may not understand the magnitude of that consequence, so any lie under any conditions is very risky behavior. The Buddha stressed repeatedly that lying has very serious kammic consequences. The Buddha did not lie to save lives, to tell jokes, or as a "teacheing tool". He never condoned lying in any form (that I know of), so why does one think they know better than the Buddha?

I lie. Unfortunately, I do. It happens. I slip up and out pops a little lie. Sometimes out of jest. Sometimes to avoid an uncomfortable situation. But let us at least be honest with ourselves that there will be a kammic consequence, the Buddha was very straightforward in his advice on lying, and it is an unwholesome activity that the wise do not perform.

I agree, so on a large scale, one should avoid situations leading to lying, put effort in preventing it from far away, eg right livelihood. It is easier to lie or doing bad actions if everyone around is lying, cheating.. So carefully choose one's own friends, job, choose location, environment to live are parts of 8 fold path. By putting effort in keeping the precepts, one puts himself forward on the path.

Also I see problem in hope and regret in relation with the precepts, some of them are wrong views. E.g one may put much effort in keeping the precepts and then makes mistakes sometimes, then he takes it like a big deal, he is not worthy any more because of that. IMO, of course it is a big deal because it is a rare chance to look into one's own mind, but not a big deal in the sense of his own value decreased. That is the wrong view about the precept, attaches oneself to the precepts, or think that sila or precepts actually make the holy life. The precept is the tool leading to live the holy life, it is not the holy life. If one makes mistake, learns from it, don't blame himself. Regret prevents good things in mind

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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:05 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Barcsimalsi,

I don't think it's a matter of "self-annihilation" or "pretend not to see the self". As I understand it, it's a matter of seeing through concepts such as self.

:anjali:
Mike



:rolleye:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:27 pm

hi barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Barcsimalsi,

I don't think it's a matter of "self-annihilation" or "pretend not to see the self". As I understand it, it's a matter of seeing through concepts such as self.

:anjali:
Mike

:rolleye:

Sorry, was there something confusing about my reply?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Ill ... sions.html

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby ground » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:55 am

Ervin wrote:By the way my answer is: It's always ok or right to lie, but its not always good. Wrong is nothing, everything is right but there is good and evil.

So the question should be: When is it good to lie?

The differentiation between "okay" and "good" appears obscure.
Anyway, you can find an answer in religions or legislation if you need "external" support. :sage:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:13 am

mikenz66 wrote:hi barcsimalsi,
barcsimalsi wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Barcsimalsi,

I don't think it's a matter of "self-annihilation" or "pretend not to see the self". As I understand it, it's a matter of seeing through concepts such as self.

:anjali:
Mike

:rolleye:

Sorry, was there something confusing about my reply?
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Ill ... sions.html

:anjali:
Mike


No, not your fault. My mind isn't ready to digest the self or non-self conception.
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby ground » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:21 am

barcsimalsi wrote: My mind isn't ready to digest the self or non-self conception.

It will never be ready as long as it is "mine" and as soon as there is the cessation of "mine" there is nothing to digest. :sage:
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Re: When do you believe or know that its ok to lie?

Postby whynotme » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:15 pm

At least he is being honestly

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