The stages of the path.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
vinasp
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The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is my current understanding of the stages of the path.

The Stages of the Path.

tathagata, arahant 2

[eliminated: five higher fetters, the five aggregates ]

non-returner, arahant 1, asekha (non-learner) ----- noble path ---

[eliminated:three asava's ,fetters 4 and 5, six sense spheres, five clinging aggregates]

sekha (learner), stream enterer, noble disciple --- noble eightfold path ---

[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]

worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path ---


Regards, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

Here is my current understanding of the stages of the path.

The Stages of the Path.

tathagata, arahant 2

[eliminated: five higher fetters, the five aggregates ]

non-returner, arahant 1, asekha (non-learner) ----- noble path ---

[eliminated:three asava's ,fetters 4 and 5, six sense spheres, five clinging aggregates]

sekha (learner), stream enterer, noble disciple --- noble eightfold path ---

[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]

worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path ---


Regards, Vincent.
Hi Vincent,
what is an Arahant 2 & 1?
I take it the things eliminated are below the stage, but all except the enlightened ones are training.
A sotapana is someone who doesn't specifically need a teacher and they can be left alone as can the others (as I understand it anyway) but an arahant is beyond training.

The world-ling doesn't necessarily have the wrongfold path, but they are not fimly upon it and can be someone learning such as the Dhamma-follower or faith-follower.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Cittasanto,

Quote: "what is an Arahant 2 & 1?"

If you read it from the bottom up it is easier to follow.

Both the non-returner (asekha) and the tathagata are called arahants.

So the non-returner is the first arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 1.
The tathagata is the second arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 2.

Quote: "...but all except the enlightened ones are training."

Yes. All except the fully enlightened ones are still on a path of practice. But the
term 'learner' (sekha) refers to the learners course, and excludes the asekha, although
he does of course still have work to do.

Regards, Vincent.
santa100
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by santa100 »

vinasp wrote:
Both the non-returner (asekha) and the tathagata are called arahants
A non-returner is still Sekha. Only the Tathagata and those with Fruition of Arahantship are ASekha. Some resources that might be useful..
1. Sekha definition: http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/s_t/sekha.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. Puthujjana definition: http://palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/puthujjana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. The Four Stages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stage ... ightenment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Aloka
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Aloka »

Ajahn Amaro gave a talk at Amaravati Monastery about stream entry and beyond, called "The Breakthrough".

If anyone is interested, you can find it on the list of audios here:

http://feeds.amaravati.org/AmaravatiTalks


.
Last edited by Aloka on Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi santa100,

Perhaps I should have said that this explanation of the path is based on the four Nikaya's.
It does seem to differ from the descriptions found in the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries.

Quote: "A non-returner is still Sekha."

The sekha is defined as 'one possessed of the eight path factors'. The asekha is
associated with a ten factor path.

If a non-returner is still a sekha, then only an arahant is an asekha. But this leads
to the puzzling conclusion that the arahant is still on a path of practice.

"Thus, bhikkhus, the path of the disciple in higher training possesses eight factors,
the arahant possesses ten factors." [BB, MLDB, p.939 - MN 117.34]

I read this as meaning that the arahants path has ten factors, and that arahant here
means asekha.

Regards, Vincent.
santa100
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by santa100 »

Hi Vinasp, I find the Commentaries serves to clarify fine points in the Suttas without generating any conflict with the Suttas. The non-returner is one who has transcended the five lower fetters, but not the five higher fetters. That's why s/he still has work to do (Sekha). Only the arahant would be able to completely eliminate all ten fetters, thus s/he has no more work to do (ASekha). This is confirmed by MN 52 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world."
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Cittasanto,

Quote: "what is an Arahant 2 & 1?"

If you read it from the bottom up it is easier to follow.

Both the non-returner (asekha) and the tathagata are called arahants.

So the non-returner is the first arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 1.
The tathagata is the second arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 2.
where? you say later this is based on the nikaya but this is never seen.

Quote: "...but all except the enlightened ones are training."

Yes. All except the fully enlightened ones are still on a path of practice. But the
term 'learner' (sekha) refers to the learners course, and excludes the asekha, although
he does of course still have work to do.

Regards, Vincent.
the asekha has nothing left to do by definition.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi Cittasanto,

From your first post:

Quote: "The world-ling doesn't necessarily have the wrongfold path, but they are not firmly upon it and can be someone learning such as the Dhamma-follower or faith-follower."

You are correct. I tried to keep it simple, with some details omitted.

I will attempt to re-work it to include the eight noble persons, the four pairs of
persons. This would result, for the stream enterer, in something like this:

2. stream enterer (fruit), sekha (learner), noble disciple --- noble eightfold path.
---[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
1. stream enterer (path)
0. worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path.

The numbers 1 to 8 are the eight noble persons, in the order of attainment.
Numbers 1 and 2 are the first pair.

The first noble person is the one 'working to obtain the fruit of stream entry.'
The second noble person is the one 'who has obtained the fruit of stream entry.'

Question: Is it the one who has obtained the fruit who is called stream enterer, or
is it both persons? If anyone has any information on this point, can they please post it.

In the example above, I assume that both are called stream enterer.

Regards, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Cittasanto,

From your first post:

Quote: "The world-ling doesn't necessarily have the wrongfold path, but they are not firmly upon it and can be someone learning such as the Dhamma-follower or faith-follower."

You are correct. I tried to keep it simple, with some details omitted.

I will attempt to re-work it to include the eight noble persons, the four pairs of
persons. This would result, for the stream enterer, in something like this:

2. stream enterer (fruit), sekha (learner), noble disciple --- noble eightfold path.
---[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
1. stream enterer (path)
0. worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path.

The numbers 1 to 8 are the eight noble persons, in the order of attainment.
Numbers 1 and 2 are the first pair.

The first noble person is the one 'working to obtain the fruit of stream entry.'
The second noble person is the one 'who has obtained the fruit of stream entry.'

Question: Is it the one who has obtained the fruit who is called stream enterer, or
is it both persons? If anyone has any information on this point, can they please post it.

In the example above, I assume that both are called stream enterer.

Regards, Vincent.
to my memory it is unclear whether both are called stream enterers within the texts? but I think it is quite obvious one isn't a stream enterer (as in fruit) and is on the path there!
the ones on the path are dhamma & faith followers.
but your inclusion of Arahant is still inaccurate in the non-returner, the non-returner simply doesn't return to this world but to a heavenly world or attains awakening before they die.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is the reworked version, including the eight noble persons.

The Stages of the Path.

8. arahant 2 (fruit), tathagata.
---[eliminated: five higher fetters, the five aggregates ]
7. arahant 1 (path), asekha (non-learner), ------------- noble path (ten factors).
6. non-returner (fruit).
---[eliminated:three asava's ,fetters 4 and 5, six sense spheres, five clinging aggregates]
5. non-returner (path)
4. once returner (fruit)
---[reduced: fetters 4 and five.]
3. once returner (path)
2. stream enterer (fruit), sekha (learner), noble disciple --- noble eightfold path.
---[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
1. stream enterer (path)
0. worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path.

The idea here is that the obtaining of any of the fruits can be rapid compared to
the time spent on the path to the fruit. And that one can enjoy ones success for as
long as one likes, before applying oneself to the next path/fruit.

"When each of the four ways (magga) had been fully mastered it was said to yield a
fruit (phala). The fruit of one way was not immediate attainment to the next way,
but was the gaining of definite subsequent states (fully stated in the texts). n.1
These states had to wear out before entrance to the next way, if this was destined,
could take place."

The Early Buddhist Theory of Man Perfected, I. B. Horner, 1936, page 206.

Regards, Vincent.
santa100
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by santa100 »

Thanks for the improved version. However, there're still some technical points to be corrected. If you refer to the palikanon link I provided above, you'll notice that for your step 1., one on the path of stream entry should already be counted as a Sekha. For step 7., one on the path of arahantship is still a Sekha. Only those with Fruition of arahantship and the Tathagata could be counted as ASekha. And the last point, step 8., fruition of arahantship and Tathagata, not sure what you meant by: "eliminated the five aggregates"?? The Buddha and many of His arahant disciples were alive and well after they attained the highest fruit so..
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Vincent.
apart from what santa has already pointed out.
The idea here is that the obtaining of any of the fruits can be rapid compared to
the time spent on the path to the fruit. And that one can enjoy ones success for as
long as one likes, before applying oneself to the next path/fruit.

"When each of the four ways (magga) had been fully mastered it was said to yield a
fruit (phala). The fruit of one way was not immediate attainment to the next way,
but was the gaining of definite subsequent states (fully stated in the texts). n.1
These states had to wear out before entrance to the next way, if this was destined,
could take place."


The Early Buddhist Theory of Man Perfected, I. B. Horner, 1936, page 206.

Regards, Vincent.
The Buddhas last advise on being heedful was precisely due to sotapannas not putting effort toward the goal. So I do not see how "time spent" has anything to do with it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi santa100,

From an earlier post of yours:

Quote: "A non-returner is still Sekha."

Yes, the revised version no longer confuses the non-returner with the arahant who is
on the path to the arahant fruit (who is also called an asekha).

Quote: "Only the Tathagata and those with Fruition of Arahantship are ASekha."

No. I do not agree with this, see below:

Quote: " Some resources that might be useful..
1. Sekha definition: ..."

The definition is from the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka, page 198.

Either the Dictionary is wrong, or there are two ways of understanding the stages of
the path. It cannot be correct that only the eighth noble person is an asekha.
The asekha is associated with a path of ten factors, this would include right effort.
If one who has obtained the fruit of arahantship is still making efforts, then the
path has no end.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi santa100,

From an earlier post of yours:

Quote: "The non-returner is one who has transcended the five lower fetters, but not the five higher fetters. That's why s/he still has work to do (Sekha)."

First sentence: I agree.
Second sentence, excluding the word in brackets: I agree.

Nowhere in the Nikaya's is the sekha defined as one who still has work to do. The
translation of sekha and asekha as learner and non-learner is misleading, both still
have work to do, they are stages on the path.

Quote: "Only the arahant would be able to completely eliminate all ten fetters, thus s/he has no more work to do (ASekha)."

Nowhere in the Nikaya's is the asekha defined as one who 'has no more work to do.'
The arahant (asekha) who is on the path to the fruit of arahantship clearly still has
work to do. The arahant who has obtained the fruit has no more work to do.

Quote: "This is confirmed by MN 52 ..."

I do not see how this passage confirms your argument. It is an important passage, but
it can be interpreted in various ways. A full discussion of it should wait until other
points have been settled.

Regards, Vincent.
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