"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of space, the perception of forms has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of nothingness, the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness has ceased. When one has attained the dimension of neither-perception nor non-perception, the perception of the dimension of nothingness has ceased. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have ceased. When a monk's effluents have ended, passion has ceased, aversion has ceased, delusion has ceased."
convivium wrote:so what does, for example, "speech has ceased" mean? it sounds like it's supposing a verbal mantra, but that seems like an unjustified interpretation.
I'm not so sure about the statement that, in third jhana, piti ceases.
The jhana pericope has
pītiyā ca virāgā
which is indifference to piti, not the cessation of piti.
"To attain the third jhana the meditator must use the same method he used to ascend from the first jhana to the second. He must master the second jhana in the five ways, enter and emerge from it, and reflect upon its defects. In this case the defect of proximate corruption is the nearness of applied and sustained thought, which threaten to disrupt the serenity of the second jhana; its inherent defect is the presence of rapture, which now appears as a gross factor that should be discarded. Aware of the imperfections in the second jhana, the meditator cultivates indifference towards it and aspires instead for the peace and sublimity of the third jhana, towards the attainment of which he now directs his efforts. When his practice matures he enters the third jhana, which has the two jhana factors that remain when the rapture disappears, happiness and one-pointedness, and which the suttas describe as follows:
With the fading away of rapture, he dwells in equanimity, mindful and discerning; and he experiences in his own person that happiness of which the noble ones say: 'Happily lives he who is equanimous and mindful' — thus he enters and dwells in the third jhana. (M.i,182; Vbh.245)"
""As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'""
convivium wrote:So, I take it there are controversies in the interpretation of this first passage posted by Santa, not to mention in the other passages that map the jhanas. Should this worry me?
AN 2.125-6 wrote:"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of wrong view. Which two? The voice of another and inappropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of wrong view."
"Monks, there are these two conditions for the arising of right view. Which two? The voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
I'm looking for descriptions of how the perception of breath arises in line with each particular jhana. How does perception of the breath become a steady enough object to go beyond access concentration? What does this look like in first, second, third, and fourth jhanas. Does the perception of breath go away in the arupa jhanas? In the fourth jhana?
convivium wrote:You seem suggest to becoming a relativist about interpretation.
convivium wrote:My initial intuition was critically examining the texts, in depth, to arrive at the most justified interpretations.
This still seems reasonable, provided that "the texts" to which i am referring, namely the suttas, are not commentarial to begin with.
But I gather that most scholars would argue that the majority of suttas are, in a sense, commentarial.
daverupa wrote:I'm not so sure about the statement that, in third jhana, piti ceases.
The jhana pericope has
pītiyā ca virāgā
which is indifference to piti, not the cessation of piti. That Sutta spends most of its time connecting jhana progression with formless progression, which for various reasons I take to be a sign of relative lateness.
convivium wrote:Thanks Ben! So do they all agree on what qualifies as these particular rarefied states (specifically jhana)? Do they each simply emphasize different degrees of absorption within any possible jhana while they all agree on what qualifies as each particular jhana? For example, Thanissaro's jhana as against Brahm's or Pa-Auk's appears different. Would the latter teachers consider each jhana, under Thanissaro's description, true jhana (only to a lesser degree of absorbtion)?
mikenz66 wrote:The Great Jhana Debate
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