Is the Buddha sexist

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by BlueLotus »

Jason wrote: For what it's worth, I agree with Richard Gombrich (via email) that this sutta is likely a piece of 'abhidhamma catechism' dating after the Buddha's lifetime; and like him, I sincerely doubt that the Buddha ever concerned himself with who could or couldn't become a Buddha, Mara, etc. In addition, Gombrich notes in What The Buddha Thought that he's "convinced by the arguments of Ute Husken that the story of the Buddha's reluctance to allow nuns into the Sangha does not date from his lifetime" (p. 53). You can also find some of my thoughts on this topic from two year ago here if you're interested.
OK! That's good to hear because we can not convince well that he is not sexist if we also say he said those things. It is hard to believe. because the Buddha was against other stuff in society like cast. He stood against it. No reason why he allows discrimination. Even if to adjust to old society. It does not match his other teachings.
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BlueLotus
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by BlueLotus »

Dear Jason,

I read your nice article. I wonder.... was the state of women that bad in old India? I think it was not as bad as we think. It looked like women had some decision making power and good social state too. Look at the queens and princesses and lay women like vishaka etc who were respected. Even before buddha came they did not live like slaves
daverupa
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by daverupa »

BlueLotus wrote:It does not match his other teachings.
Precisely so.

It isn't that the texts are 'corrupted', because I'm not sure about that word - but, the Nikayas, which contain most of the earliest material, also contain much that is late, as already noted, and these later components were thoroughly spliced into the Nikaya recitations in the first few centuries.

So, the whole thing requires careful attention. We aren't in a position to collect the texts and say this is pristine, this is not... but, as you say, we can compare these sorts of things to the teachings, and see what is in accord with that and what is not.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

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BlueLotus
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by BlueLotus »

daverupa wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:It does not match his other teachings.
Precisely so.

It isn't that the texts are 'corrupted', because I'm not sure about that word - but, the Nikayas, which contain most of the earliest material, also contain much that is late, as already noted, and these later components were thoroughly spliced into the Nikaya recitations in the first few centuries.

So, the whole thing requires careful attention. We aren't in a position to collect the texts and say this is pristine, this is not... but, as you say, we can compare these sorts of things to the teachings, and see what is in accord with that and what is not.
Ohh yes. I think i now understand what you have been saying about suttas. :heart: Thank you
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Jason
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Jason »

BlueLotus wrote:Dear Jason,

I read your nice article. I wonder.... was the state of women that bad in old India? I think it was not as bad as we think. It looked like women had some decision making power and good social state too. Look at the queens and princesses and lay women like vishaka etc who were respected. Even before buddha came they did not live like slaves
Compared to today, I think it was pretty bad, just as it was in ancient Greece and countless other places where women were excluded from many spheres of life and generally had far less social status than men. Certainly women were respected and had some decision making power in ancient India, but just like today in many parts of the world, women were often treated more as property (whether of her family or her husband) than autonomous individuals.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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SarathW
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by SarathW »

Hi Bluelotus
To my understanding, the only requirement for enlightenment is eliminating ten fetters. It does not matter who you are. I think Vinaya rules are mere code of conduct. Professionals such as doctors and accountants also got certain rules, if they need to belong to a professional body. There are accountants and doctors who are not belong to a professional society. Even in Modern society, we still have seperate toilets for men and women. We have road rules so we can drive safely. Royal family has to obey the protocols. These rules may change over time.
I hope this may some assistance to you.
Metta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Ben
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Ben »

Bhikkhu Bodhi argues in the introduction to the AN that there appears to be corruption of the suttas by the compilers. Those suttas where the Buddha allegedly dispariages women are in stark contrast with others where he receives lay women, his ordination of women, his chief female disciples and the role of female lay benefactors.
kind regards,

Ben
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Ben
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Ben »

Dear members,
Please remain on-topic.
Off-topic posts are routinely removed without notice.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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dreamov
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by dreamov »

But about saying women
can never be the self enlighten one
-- it is something he could not have
said right?
No religious doctrine is expounded by a woman, dhamma should be no exception.
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by DNS »

dreamov wrote: No religious doctrine is expounded by a woman, dhamma should be no exception.
The Buddha disagrees with you.

The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna taught the Dhamma to the lay follower Visakha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Visakha went to the Buddha for confirmation.
The Buddha's response:

the Blessed One said to him, "Dhammadinna the nun is wise, Visakha, a woman of great discernment. If you had asked me those things, I would have answered you in the same way she did. That is the meaning of those things. That is how you should remember it."
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Mr Man
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Mr Man »

David N. Snyder wrote:
dreamov wrote: No religious doctrine is expounded by a woman, dhamma should be no exception.
The Buddha disagrees with you.

The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna taught the Dhamma to the lay follower Visakha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Visakha went to the Buddha for confirmation.
The Buddha's response:

the Blessed One said to him, "Dhammadinna the nun is wise, Visakha, a woman of great discernment. If you had asked me those things, I would have answered you in the same way she did. That is the meaning of those things. That is how you should remember it."
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dreamov
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by dreamov »

The Buddha disagrees with you.
The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna
taught the Dhamma to the lay
follower Visakha.
What i meant was that women can not become self-enlightened (Buddha), teach self-discovered dhamma and establish a sangha. There's a reason why not a single woman is known to have founded any religion.
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Ben
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Ben »

dreamov wrote:There's a reason why not a single woman is known to have founded any religion.
Which is beyond the scope of this thread.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Reductor
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Reductor »

dreamov wrote:
The Buddha disagrees with you.
The bhikkhuni Dhammadinna
taught the Dhamma to the lay
follower Visakha.
What i meant was that women can not become self-enlightened (Buddha), teach self-discovered dhamma and establish a sangha. There's a reason why not a single woman is known to have founded any religion.
You suggest that a lack of woman founders necessitates an inability on their part to be self-enlightened?

Instead, perhaps, the historical ordering of human society has suppressed some self-enlightened woman of the past. That is, if men, who have historically been in power, disregard the teachings of a woman whom they see as inferior, how would that woman be able establish any religion at all?
Cassandra
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Re: Is the Buddhs sexist

Post by Cassandra »

dreamov wrote: What i meant was that women can not become self-enlightened (Buddha), teach self-discovered dhamma and establish a sangha. There's a reason why not a single woman is known to have founded any religion.
The reason is because women were not even educated until much later in the evolution of civilizations. They were confined to limited social roles as bearers of offspring and did not have sufficient recognition in society to actually be able to put forth a religious doctrine. Even today, I notice a general resistance to women in leading/holy positions.
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