vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
Here is my current understanding of the stages of the path.
The Stages of the Path.
tathagata, arahant 2
[eliminated: five higher fetters, the five aggregates ]
non-returner, arahant 1, asekha (non-learner) ----- noble path ---
[eliminated:three asava's ,fetters 4 and 5, six sense spheres, five clinging aggregates]
sekha (learner), stream enterer, noble disciple --- noble eightfold path ---
[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path ---
Both the non-returner (asekha) and the tathagata are called arahants
"There is the case, householder, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He reflects on this and discerns, 'This first jhana is fabricated & intended. Now whatever is fabricated & intended is inconstant & subject to cessation.' Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world."
vinasp wrote:Hi Cittasanto,
Quote: "what is an Arahant 2 & 1?"
If you read it from the bottom up it is easier to follow.
Both the non-returner (asekha) and the tathagata are called arahants.
So the non-returner is the first arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 1.
The tathagata is the second arahant stage attained, so I called it arahant 2.
Quote: "...but all except the enlightened ones are training."
Yes. All except the fully enlightened ones are still on a path of practice. But the
term 'learner' (sekha) refers to the learners course, and excludes the asekha, although
he does of course still have work to do.
vinasp wrote:Hi Cittasanto,
From your first post:
Quote: "The world-ling doesn't necessarily have the wrongfold path, but they are not firmly upon it and can be someone learning such as the Dhamma-follower or faith-follower."
You are correct. I tried to keep it simple, with some details omitted.
I will attempt to re-work it to include the eight noble persons, the four pairs of
persons. This would result, for the stream enterer, in something like this:
2. stream enterer (fruit), sekha (learner), noble disciple --- noble eightfold path.
---[ asava of views eliminated, first three fetters eliminated ]
1. stream enterer (path)
0. worldling (puthujjana) ----------------------------- wrong eightfold path.
The numbers 1 to 8 are the eight noble persons, in the order of attainment.
Numbers 1 and 2 are the first pair.
The first noble person is the one 'working to obtain the fruit of stream entry.'
The second noble person is the one 'who has obtained the fruit of stream entry.'
Question: Is it the one who has obtained the fruit who is called stream enterer, or
is it both persons? If anyone has any information on this point, can they please post it.
In the example above, I assume that both are called stream enterer.
The idea here is that the obtaining of any of the fruits can be rapid compared to
the time spent on the path to the fruit. And that one can enjoy ones success for as
long as one likes, before applying oneself to the next path/fruit.
"When each of the four ways (magga) had been fully mastered it was said to yield a
fruit (phala). The fruit of one way was not immediate attainment to the next way,
but was the gaining of definite subsequent states (fully stated in the texts). n.1
These states had to wear out before entrance to the next way, if this was destined,
could take place."
The Early Buddhist Theory of Man Perfected, I. B. Horner, 1936, page 206.
Nowhere in the Nikaya's is the asekha defined as one who 'has no more work to do.'
The arahant (asekha) who is on the path to the fruit of arahantship clearly still has work to do.
SN22.76 my rendering wrote:"The understanding of one beyond training arises - "This is the final body."
So whoever fully lives the chaste life, does not need the support of others."
One of the arahants is an
asekha, but the other one is not.
"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten"
On #1: What I say is that, 'the one on the path to attaining the fruit of arahantship', is
called an arahant.
Users browsing this forum: Saoshun and 7 guests