The Cart Simile

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Cittasanto
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The Cart Simile

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi All,
Does anyone remember where in the canon the cart is used in an example to illustrate the body as an assembly of parts?
similar to Bodhidharma in China, or sister Vajira here or am I simply remembering the Sister Vajira sutta?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ben
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by Ben »

Greetings Cittasanto,

Are you sure its not the chariot?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Cittasanto
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Ben,
chariot is probably used
but the only example I have found is the Bhikkhuni Vajira Sutta.
Just as when parts are put together, it can be called a chariot;
So when the Sensorial aggregates come together, conventionally there is a living being.
I couldn't find anything in the index on A2I but I am connected with my phone at the moment and I am not very good with it for searching at the moment :(
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ben
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by Ben »

Hi Cittasanto,
I think it could be the same one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajira" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tsurezuregusa
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by tsurezuregusa »

Hi Cittasanto,

the Ven. Nagasena uses the chariot as a metaphor in the first chapter of the Milindapanha to explain the anatman-doctrine to the Greek king Menandros.

Kind regards,
Florian
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Cittasanto
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by Cittasanto »

Ben wrote:Hi Cittasanto,
I think it could be the same one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajira" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
kind regards,

Ben
Hi Ben,
Yeah it is the same, I was sure the Buddha used this simile once, but obviously mistaken.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by daverupa »

Interesting implications, I should think.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
rowyourboat
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by rowyourboat »

"Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Even royal chariots
well-embellished
get run down,
and so does the body
succumb to old age.
But the Dhamma of the good
doesn't succumb to old age:
the good let the civilized know.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know its not the same thing but I wondered if this was what you were referring to.

With metta

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With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
daverupa
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by daverupa »

Thank you in any event; it's nice to have the cart 'simile' in this context, as opposed to the rather cognitive "sum of parts" version.

:meditate:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Cittasanto
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi tsurezuregusa,
that is the simile I was thinking of (or similar) but by the Buddha.
thanks for pointing in the direction.
Milinda: “I did not come, Sir, on foot, but on a chariot.”

Nagasena: “If you have come on a chariot, then please explain to me what a chariot is. Is the pole the chariot?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Is then the axle the chariot?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Is it then the wheels, or the framework, or the flag-staff, or the yoke, or the reins, or the goadstick?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then is it the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then is this ‘chariot’ outside the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad?”

Milinda: “No, reverend Sir!”

Nagasena: “Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all. Just a mere sound is this ‘chariot’. But what is the real chariot? Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood! There really is no chariot! Your Majesty is the greatest king in the whole of India. Of whom then are you afraid, that you do not speak the truth?”
(To Assembly) “Now listen, you 500 Greeks, and 80,000 monks, this king Milinda tells me he has come in a chariot. But when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot establish its existence. How can one possibly approve of that?”
The five hundred Greeks thereupon applauded the Venerable Nagasena and said to King Milinda: “Now let your Majesty get out of this if you can!”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
theY
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Re: The Cart Simile

Post by theY »

Visuddhimagga Diṭṭhivisuddhiniddesa claim to that sutta, and have another about 12 similes in that niddesa.

http://books.google.co.th/books?id=B_UW ... &q&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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