Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Ervin » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:58 am

Conscience is very gentle and we are all born with it. Now if we have conscience then why do we need someone teachings us good from evil.

Now if you believe that you need the teachings in order to know good from evil my question to you is: Isn't it your conscience that would recognise truth about teachings concerned with morality and ethics?

Thoughts
Ervin
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:09 am

There is an old Chan (Zen) story that goes something like this.

A Buddhist monk and a Confucian scholar met for a public debate.

"Tell us what does the Buddha teach?" asked the scholar.

"Refrain from doing evil and do good", replied the monk.

"Ha!' exclaimed the scholar, 'even a child of seven years of age knows this!"

"A child of seven knows this, but a man of seventy knows not how to do this." replied the monk.

Does this answer your question, Ervin?

Buddhism focuses on the mind. On getting to know it and letting go of delusion that is rife. This is what helps us refrain from doing evil and do good, put an end to suffering and harming.
_/|\_
User avatar
Dan74
 
Posts: 2702
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Digity » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:19 pm

Ervin wrote:Conscience is very gentle and we are all born with it. Now if we have conscience then why do we need someone teachings us good from evil.

Now if you believe that you need the teachings in order to know good from evil my question to you is: Isn't it your conscience that would recognise truth about teachings concerned with morality and ethics?

Thoughts

Some people lack a conscience...like a serial killer. So no, not everyone has it.
Samsara sucks.
Digity
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Ervin » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:10 pm

Digity wrote:
Ervin wrote:Conscience is very gentle and we are all born with it. Now if we have conscience then why do we need someone teachings us good from evil.

Now if you believe that you need the teachings in order to know good from evil my question to you is: Isn't it your conscience that would recognise truth about teachings concerned with morality and ethics?

Thoughts

Some people lack a conscience...like a serial killer. So no, not everyone has it.


But was that serial killer born like that? And once you have become a serial killer can you come back and regain your conscience?

And what I actually mean is Buddha nature. Or what some people call Source or God.
Ervin
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby santa100 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:50 pm

Ervin wrote:
once you have become a serial killer can you come back and regain your conscience?


Sure, Angulimala ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala )

Ervin wrote:
Isn't it your conscience that would recognise truth about teachings concerned with morality and ethics?


Sure, but the Dhamma is a lot more than a simple morality/ethics system. If it's just that, then any secular humanist system will do. The Dhamma's ultimate aim is the total and complete ending to suffering and samsara. And for this, one will need a lot more than just a good conscience. One'd need to follow the path that some great person himself had walked before and got thru to the finishing line..
santa100
 
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Digity » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:53 pm

My understanding is that if the serial killer was born with a lack of conscience it's because of his past actions. Meaning, in his past lives he lived without much of a conscience and that sense of conscience slowly slipped away to a point where he became a killer. That's why it's import to develop a conscience and care about your actions or you can fall into darkness like the serial killer. That's why your thoughts are so important. It might just start out as simple as thinking "I hate people". After many years and lifetimes if this thought takes root it could lead to you wanting to kill people. Do you see how something small can lead to something big and terrible? So, having a conscience isn't a given. Being virtuous isn't a given. You must develop these qualities. You have a say in all this.

Let's imagine you have the thought "I hate people", but this time you rebuke this thought and say "it's wrong of me to think this." Instead, you practice metta and loving-kindness meditation. Slowly you overcome these malicious thoughts and eventually develop a sense of good will towards people. Do you see the difference there? You have a role in which direction you take.

I'm not a serial killer so I don't know if one could regain their conscience. Although, the more you follow the path of evil the farther away you are from the Dharma. So, just be wise and don't even go there.
Samsara sucks.
Digity
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:13 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby whynotme » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:15 am

Ervin wrote:Conscience is very gentle and we are all born with it. Now if we have conscience then why do we need someone teachings us good from evil.

Now if you believe that you need the teachings in order to know good from evil my question to you is: Isn't it your conscience that would recognise truth about teachings concerned with morality and ethics?

Thoughts

Dear Ervin,

There is nothing like pre installed conscience. Once you said you will be open minded, and let the truth in, just be like that.

I tell you this, in Buddhism, or in the Buddha's teaching the paramount is panna or translating it in a loosely word, wisdom. Wisdom in Buddhism is not from experience, not from training, not from knowledge, not from memory, not from thinking, not from learning, wisdom is direct understanding, direct knowledge, and timeless, also wisdom can't be wrong. Wisdom is the thing recognize truth.

None of religions outside of Buddhism or even modern scientists can know this wisdom or direct knowledge. Once you know wisdom, no other religions can convince or convert you anymore, and you will believe in the Buddha.

Regards
Please stop following me
whynotme
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby whynotme » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:59 am

What is good, what is bad?

IMO, a person has a body and a brain. From there, two kind of feelings arise, physical feelings from the body, e.g pain, itchy, pleasure, hot, cold,.. and metal feelings from the brain, e.g sadness, sorrow, joy,.. The physical and metal feelings can be divided into 3 kinds: good (joy, pleasure), normal, bad (pain, sadness)

Those feelings are based for good and bad. Good actions are actions leading to good feelings arise in oneself or in others, and bad actions are actions leading to bad feelings arise in oneself or in others. Thing like stealing provide short term comforts and so on happiness for one person, but it makes others sorrow, and in the long term, it leads to jails, confrontation, fighting, war, killing and death. Alcohol, smoking bring short term pleasure but in the long run, it creates more problems than it solved. So good and bad must be considered under short term and long term benefits and we have:

Short term bad, long term bad
Short term bad, long term good
Short term good, long term bad
Short term good, long term good

Based on one own ability to recognize and putting effort, actions may go under one of those categories. The first one is the most terrible, and the last one is the best. So good and bad are not based on conscience, but based on feelings and the ability to recognize the meaning of those feelings. It is very straight

Regards
Please stop following me
whynotme
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Ervin » Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:05 pm

The way I see the truth is that there is an infinite Source of everything that exists, whom people traditionally call God and Hem is( I say Hem instead of Him or Her) is best described by myself in one word as Gentleness. The Source of everything that exists is infinitely Gentle. Now conscience is very gentle. I wold like to post one of my experiences from around seven months ago:

I have copied the following from a forum with the date wich is round about when it happened

by Ervin » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:08 am

I thought I might go a bit into my last experience of God. Last time I felt strong presence/communication with God was about three to two weeks ago. It was the most beautiful experience I had in my life and at the same time the"devil/demons" where playing mind games with me it didn't bother me at all. God felt like peace, light, love, truth, gentleness, someone who wouldn't burn anyone in eternal hell. It was wonderful. It was just someone you can totally trust with everything. Just a memory of that experience is enough to make me calm, forgiving, compassionate, loving, kind, reasonable, good. It was as I could see God but I wasn't seeing things. Gods presence was felt as if he was everywhere. Thats what I felt.

Thanks
Ervin
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Dan74 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:18 am

Hi Ervin,

I am happy for you that you have this experience of Gentleness and I hope you will have many more.

I also hope you don't expect to receive validation from a Buddhist forum because God is not in common currency among Buddhists.

What can't be argued, however, is that if this brings you peace and makes you a happier and better person, it can't be anything but Good.

All the best!!!
_/|\_
User avatar
Dan74
 
Posts: 2702
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:10 am

santa100 wrote:
Ervin wrote:
once you have become a serial killer can you come back and regain your conscience?


Sure, Angulimala ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala )


Has anyone miss Devadatta? His story was quite the opposite to Angulimala. Supposed that a person who attained 4Jhana and samadhi like him had very little desire and delusion left?
barcsimalsi
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:33 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:26 am

barcsimalsi wrote:
santa100 wrote:
Ervin wrote:
once you have become a serial killer can you come back and regain your conscience?


Sure, Angulimala ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angulimala )


Has anyone miss Devadatta? His story was quite the opposite to Angulimala. Supposed that a person who attained 4Jhana and samadhi like him had very little desire and delusion left?


Since Devadatta is seen as an example of a good monk in the Chinese sources, it's possible his demonization is later story-making, rather than a historical example of jhana paired with delusion and aggression.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4361
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby whynotme » Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:50 am

Ervin wrote:The way I see the truth is that there is an infinite Source of everything that exists, whom people traditionally call God and Hem is( I say Hem instead of Him or Her) is best described by myself in one word as Gentleness. The Source of everything that exists is infinitely Gentle. Now conscience is very gentle. I wold like to post one of my experiences from around seven months ago:

I have copied the following from a forum with the date wich is round about when it happened

by Ervin » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:08 am

I thought I might go a bit into my last experience of God. Last time I felt strong presence/communication with God was about three to two weeks ago. It was the most beautiful experience I had in my life and at the same time the"devil/demons" where playing mind games with me it didn't bother me at all. God felt like peace, light, love, truth, gentleness, someone who wouldn't burn anyone in eternal hell. It was wonderful. It was just someone you can totally trust with everything. Just a memory of that experience is enough to make me calm, forgiving, compassionate, loving, kind, reasonable, good. It was as I could see God but I wasn't seeing things. Gods presence was felt as if he was everywhere. Thats what I felt.

Thanks

Thanks for sharing your experience,

I assume you are here to hear Buddhists' point of views.

First of all, no matter you seek, no matter who you are, atheist, buddhist, christian, muslim, everyone seeks happiness, safeness, security, then peace, calm, forgiving, compassionate, kind, reasonable are better than hate, anger, greed, ignorance.

Now, one way or another one has happiness. Happiness has its conditions, rich, comforts, love,.. One cannot feel happiness while one experiences pain, is bleeding, has broken bones or some kind of serious diseases. The main problem is that, what will guarantee that a kind of happiness will be last forever? What will guarantee suffering wouldn't arise in the future?

When you feel those experience, are you hungry, thirsty? Have you ever been extremely hungry *? Will those experiences of calm, love, peace prevent being hungry again in the future? No, it will not, if you don't eat anything you will be hungry, if you don't drink anything you will be thirsty, those are causes and effects.

Will some feelings prevent age, sickness or the death? No matter what the feeling, none of the feelings can prevent age and sickness or death, that's fact. Will some feelings help you see what will happen after death? No, none of those feelings help you see into the future.

Will everything end with death? Or there will be the continuity? What will guarantee it will be true? Where was you from and where will you go after this life? Will those feelings come with you? You cant make a certainty

Now, return to your specific feelings, can you control your feelings? Can you make those experiences of peace, love, calm last forever? Can you make those experiences arise when ever you want? Can you guarantee to yourself those experiences will last after death, will come with you where ever you go? I bet that you can't control your experiences, you can't make it arise when ever you want, so, even if you want them, what will guarantee they will arise in the future when you need them?

Can you guarantee those experiences will cure age, sickness, pain, diseases, being hungry, thirsty? Will your specific experiences prevent people attacking people, killing people, stealing, help recover the economy? Will your experiences let you know the beginning of the universe and the end of it, or the universe is infinite or not?

You are depended on things you can not control like many people are depended on their jobs, their incomes, think that they are secured but then suddenly being fired, lost their jobs, have accidents.. then they realized they are wrong but then it is a little too late.

There are causes and effects, if you want to end the war you must know how to win a war, if you want to recover the economy you must know how to manage an economy. Everything has its causes and effects, so a wise one must know what will lead to what in order to achieve what he want. Put all your money on one bag while you can't control the situation is a risky decision.

I have heard some kinds of experience and had some of my own, there are many kinds of strange experience. Believe me, just find samatha or jhana experience on here, I knew buddhists formerly practiced yoga and many kind of practicing and experiences.. At first, they made me feel I am special, this is true, but then after a long time I reviewed them with reason, I saw that I mustn't be depended on feelings without reason, because it will lead to conservation, it forbids the advancement on what ever I chose, and it prevents wisdom.

Well, at least here are what you will hear in the buddhist forum

Regards

* I practiced don't eat anything in many days, i.e a week, well, it was just an useless practice
Please stop following me
whynotme
 
Posts: 414
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby pegembara » Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:47 am

Buddhism is concerned about happiness and the reason why we all seek happiness. In order to know happiness, we should know what is non happiness, its cause and the permanent way out of it.

The 1st Noble Truth - "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful."

In the words of Bhante G:

He said to the five bhikkhus, birth is suffering. Suffering to whom? to the mother, baby, or society? Actually it is suffering to everybody. Every child is born not with a big smile. Everyone is born with a big cry. That cry can be heard all over the world. That cry continues until the person dies. Sometimes it is loud, sometimes it is smoldering inside. That cry is a cry for so much food, clothes, medicine, papers, vehicles, roads, houses, money, and so many problems. We all have that cry even right now, inside. Every problem in the world today and in the future depends on birth, on that cry.

How can conscience lead to permanent happiness?

The"devil/demons" where playing mind games with me it didn't bother me at all is when you no longer pay attention to your thoughts. This "demons"are greed, hatred and delusion in Buddhist terminology. Without these "demons" you have perfect peace or communion with "God".
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
 
Posts: 677
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:17 pm

daverupa wrote:Since Devadatta is seen as an example of a good monk in the Chinese sources, it's possible his demonization is later story-making, rather than a historical example of jhana paired with delusion and aggression.

Thanks for the point. This Devadatta character had been bothering my conscience for some time as i was thinking why a such bad character could easily attained Jhanas and psychic power which obviously contradicts the path shown by the Buddha.
barcsimalsi
 
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:33 am

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby santa100 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:38 pm

If one had committed some grave offenses but later on sincerely repented and put in 100% of their effort to better themselves, then everything is possible. It is only impossible when one had committed one of the anantarika-kamma (the five most heinous offenses of: patricide, matricide, killed an arahant, wounded a buddha, created sangha schism), which would put one on an irreversible path toward woeful states. In the case of Angulimala, it'd be impossible for him to turn back to the right path had the Buddha not intervene at the right time to stop Angulimala from killing his last victim: his own mother. THat'd be matricide, and Angulima would've had zero chance for coming back. He must've done something good in his previous life to see the Buddha at the right time!
santa100
 
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Isn't the truth about Buddha contained in your conscience?

Postby Ervin » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:41 pm

Conscience is very gentle. If I followed my conscience entirely I wouldn't even partake in killing plants for food. But you can't survive that way. If you want to live you must partake in at least killing plants for food and if there was nothing else then you would have to eat animal based food.

So conscience is very gentle and it can be used against you, wich is something you should guard against, since no mater what you might have done, while you are still a human you can go back to being good and you do that by following your conscience, but not by wallowing in guilt.

So its OK in life to be reasonable.

Thanks
Ervin
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:46 pm


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], kiwi and 10 guests