The stages of the path.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by santa100 »

vinasp wrote:
Nowhere in the Nikaya's is the asekha defined as one who 'has no more work to do.'
Provided with your own confirmation, that an arahant is an ASekha, ever heard of that common stock phrase for arahants being used thru out the Nikayas: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world."?
vinasp wrote:
The arahant (asekha) who is on the path to the fruit of arahantship clearly still has work to do.
There're 2 problems with your statement:
1. Your assumption that one on the path to arahantship is already an arahant (or arahant "level 1" in your language).
2. The ASekha still has work to do

Care to provide any reference or supporting literature to back up your claims above?
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi santa100,

vinasp: "Nowhere in the Nikaya's is the asekha defined as one who 'has no more work to do.'"

santa100: "Provided with your own confirmation, that an arahant is an ASekha, ever heard of that common stock phrase for arahants being used thru out the Nikayas: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'?"

What I said is true, the asekha is not explicitly defined in that way. It is you that
regards the asekha as being the same as the arahant who has attained the arahant fruit.
Based on that assumption you naturally think that the stock phrase 'Birth has ended ...'
refers to the asekha, when it is actually said of an arahant. One of the arahants is an
asekha, but the other one is not.

If two of the noble persons are called arahants, then the phrase 'Birth is ended ...',
needs to be understood as a reference to the arahant who has attained the arahant fruit.
In other places the term 'arahant' may refer to the other noble person of the pair. Such
as the line from MN 117 already quoted.

vinasp: "The arahant (asekha) who is on the path to the fruit of arahantship clearly still has work to do."

santa100:"There're 2 problems with your statement:
1. Your assumption that one on the path to arahantship is already an arahant (or arahant "level 1" in your language).
2. The ASekha still has work to do."

On #1: What I say is that, 'the one on the path to attaining the fruit of arahantship', is
called an arahant. So, yes, he is an arahant, but not the one who has attained the fruit.
What about your assumption that only one of the pair is called an arahant?

On #2: For me, the asekha is noble person number 7, he clearly still has work to do. For
you, it seems, the asekha is noble person number 8, who does not have work to do.

It seems that the terms: 'arahant', 'non-returner', 'once-returner', and 'stream enterer',
can all refer to either or both persons of the pair. So each term has two meanings.

Regards, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Vincent
In the canon unless specifically talking about the paths and fruits when a stream-winner, once-returner, non-returner, or Arahant is mentioned as a person it is referring to those who have the fruit, never the path they are on.

Asekha is used in describing an arahant but never the others to my knowledge - and do please show a place where it happends if I am inaccurate - one instance of this is SN22.76 which is specifically talking about an Arahant, and also shows what an Asekha's knowledge is.
SN22.76 my rendering wrote:"The understanding of one beyond training arises - "This is the final body."
So whoever fully lives the chaste life, does not need the support of others."
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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santa100
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by santa100 »

vinasp wrote:
One of the arahants is an
asekha, but the other one is not.
Then are you saying that some arahants are ASekha, and some arahants are Sekha? That's not what was said in the Suttas. Since you cited MN 117, here's the exact excerpt ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten"
Please show me where did you find the terms "arahant 1" and "arahant 2" as you have been using?
vinasp wrote:
On #1: What I say is that, 'the one on the path to attaining the fruit of arahantship', is
called an arahant.
???? If you're still on your way to get your phD degree, would someone has already called you Dr. Vinasp?
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I think that the stages of the path are understood in one way by worldlings, and in
another way by noble disciples. So we should expect to find passages which support each
of these two interpretations. I will look for passages of both kinds.

Here are the first two which support my alternative understanding:

"(36) Three persons: the learner, the non-learner, the one who is neither 1043 ..."
[Walshe, Long Discourses, 1987, DN 33.1.10 (36).]

This is often misunderstood. It is claimed that 'the one who is neither', is the
worldling. This is rather improbable since it is an ascending series, and is shown to
be wrong by the next passage.

"(42) Three kinds of wisdom: of the learner, of the non-learner, of the one who is
neither." [Walshe, DN 33.1.10 (42).]

The worldling is never said to have wisdom. It is clear that the person who is meant
here is the arahant who has attained the arahant fruit.

The first six noble persons are sekha, the seventh is the asekha, and the eighth is the
one who is neither.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Here is another important passage, which I believe supports my position.

"(6) Ten qualities of the non-learner (asekha): The non-learners right view, right
thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness,
right concentration, right knowledge, right liberation." [Walshe, DN 33.3.3 (6).]

If the asekha is making right effort, then he is still on a path of practice. These
are path factors which are being developed. The asekha is the seventh noble person.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

That one line in MN 117 seems to be important. Let us compare different translations:

"Thus, bhikkhus, the path of the disciple in higher training possesses eight factors,
the arahant possesses ten factors." [Bhikkhu Bodhi, MLDB, p.939 - MN 117.34]

"Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten."
[Thanissaro bhikkhu. ATI.]

"Herein the trainee's progress has eight parts, the arahant's ten."
The Discourses of Gotama Buddha: Middle Collection. David W Evans, 1992

And for those who can read Pali:

iti kho, bhikkhave, aṭṭhaṅgasamannāgato sekkho VAR, dasaṅgasamannāgato arahā hoti.

Variations found in other Tipitaka's:

aṭṭhaṅgasamannāgatā sekhā paṭipadā (sī.), aṭṭhaṅgasamannāgato sekho pāṭipado (pī. ka.) ( ) natthi sī. syā. kaṃ. pī. potthakesu

I have no idea what this all means.

Regards, Vincent.
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Cittasanto
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:"(36) Three persons: the learner, the non-learner, the one who is neither 1043 ..."
[Walshe, Long Discourses, 1987, DN 33.1.10 (36).]

This is often misunderstood. It is claimed that 'the one who is neither', is the
worldling. This is rather improbable since it is an ascending series, and is shown to
be wrong by the next passage.
do see the note 1043 which directs you to note 542 page 582.
do also note the fourfold and threefold logic formulation within the canon. this follows the same pattern.
"(42) Three kinds of wisdom: of the learner, of the non-learner, of the one who is
neither." [Walshe, DN 33.1.10 (42).]

The worldling is never said to have wisdom. It is clear that the person who is meant
here is the arahant who has attained the arahant fruit.
The fool who at least knows they are a fool to that extent is wise. dhammapada.
The first six noble persons are sekha, the seventh is the asekha, and the eighth is the
one who is neither.
so a stream enterer is one who is in training. a non-returner on the path is beyond training. and an arahant is neither training or beyond training? does that really make any sense? someone who has passed beyond is not training or beyond training, as that is how I understand it. if it was both training and beyond training I could understand your interpretation for one with fuel remaining being both, but not this I am afraid.

do note the Digha is considered to contain some later additions and considering a search for "nevasekkh" produced only results from the Abhidhamma, Netti, and Digha text you quote I find it likely to be a categorisation developed later. so any understanding derived from the Abhidhamma or other work would probably be correct, unless you can show otherwise.
Here is another important passage, which I believe supports my position.

"(6) Ten qualities of the non-learner (asekha): The non-learners right view, right
thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness,
right concentration, right knowledge, right liberation." [Walshe, DN 33.3.3 (6).]
do note the "qualities" are things which are present not things necessarily developing although the content indicates they are developing in one and not in the other. also a way to describe the difference between the Arahant and one who is in the stream. remember the Stream winner is firmly upon the path they have right speech and so on yet are not rid on the underlying tendencies hinderances... so are not beyond training. An Arahant on the other hand is fully endowed with these eight qualities and more.
Iti kho, bhikkhave, aṭṭhaṅgasamannāgato sekkho,
dasaṅgasamannāgato
arahā hoti.
Mendicants, Thus the one in training is endowed with eight factors and the perfected one is endowed with ten factors.
aṭṭha = eight
dasa = ten
ṅga -> aṅga = 1. a constituent part; 2. a limb; 3. quality.
samannāgato -> samannāgata = endowed with; possessed of.
but as this is your evidence you would have to show an Arahant that does not possess these ten qualities, and a non-returner who does.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

The variations in the 'stock passages' on the eight persons are interesting.

"Monks, there are these eight persons worthy of offerings ... the world's
peerless field for merit. What eight?
The Streamwinner, he who attains to the realization of the fruit of Streamwinning,
the Once-returner, he who attains to the realization thereof, the Non-returner, he
who attains to the realization thereof, the Arahant, and he who attains to Arahantship.
.............."
[PTS, Gradual Sayings, Vol IV, E.M. Hare, page 193.]

[ The Book of the Eights, Chapter VI, #9 - The Eight Persons.]

I am open to the possibility that this may be a mistranslation. Comments from Pali
experts are invited. Does anyone have Bhikkhu Bodhi's Numerical Discourses?

Another such passage, from the same work:

"Monks, these nine persons are found living in the world. What nine?
The Arahant, he who has attained to arahantship, the Non-returner, he
who has attained to the realization of the fruit of the Non-returner,
the Once-returner, he who has attained to the realization of the fruit
of the Once-returner, the Stream-winner, he who has attained to the
realization of the fruit of the Stream-winner, [and the ordinary man]."

[PTS, GS, Vol. IV, page 247]

[The Book of the Nines, Chapter I, #9.]

Again, it could be a poor translation, comments are welcome.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Another important Sutta is the Mulapariyaya (MN 1). It is based on a fourfold
classification of persons.

the tathagata, accomplished and fully enlightened
the arahant with taints destroyed ...
the bhikkhu in higher training (sekha)
the untaught ordinary person.

Anyone trying to understand the teachings has to relate these four persons to the
set of eight noble persons. Since the worldling is not a noble person, he must be
left out.

A monk who thinks that 'tathagata' is not a stage which can be attained by a monk,
must leave out the tathagata also. So he is left with just two kinds of person,
sekha and arahant. His only solution is to take the eighth noble person as the
arahant, and the other seven noble persons as sekha. But this leaves no place
for the asekha, who is higher than the sekha. So this monk must regard the asekha
as being just another name for an arahant.

The situation is different if one regards 'tathagata' as a stage which can be
attained by a monk. Now the tathagata is the eighth noble person, and the asekha can
be placed as the seventh noble person. The remaining six noble persons are sekha.

So, how one understands sekha and asekha will depend on whether one considers
the tathagata to be a stage which can be attained by a monk.

Regards, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Vincent,

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates AN 8:59 as "... The stream enterer, the one practising for the realization of stream entry; ...".

He does note that the text is different from AN 8:19, though he gives the same English translation.

:anjali:
Mike
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

There is an interesting passage in MN 142:

" ... One gives a gift to an arahant disciple of the Tathagata; this is the
third kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon
the way to the realization of the fruit of arahantship; this is the fourth
kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to a non-returner; this is the
fifth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon
the way to the realization of the fruit of non-return; this is the sixth kind
of personal offering. ...." [BB, MLDB, p.1103]

This shows, I think, that my first post on this thread was wrong. I thought that
the one 'working for the realization of the fruit of arahantship', would be called
a non-returner, but it seems that he is not. What, then, is he called?

This mistake was corrected in the revised version of the stages of the path.
The above passage also shows that the scope, or range, of the term 'disciple'
(savaka) includes the arahant.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

On the topic of 'the learners course', MN 73 is interesting [trans. by Bhikkhu Bodhi]:

17. "Then the wanderer Vacchagotta received the going forth under the Blessed One,
and he received the full admission. Not long after his full admission, a half-month
after his full admission, the venerable Vacchagotta went to the Blessed One ....
and told the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, I have attained whatever can be attained
by the knowledge of a disciple in higher training, by the true knowledge of a
disciple in higher training. Let the Blessed One teach me the Dhamma further."

18. "In that case, Vaccha, develop further two things; serenity and insight. ..."

25." Then the venerable Vacchagotta, having delighted and rejoiced in the Blessed
One's words ...." [departed]

26." Before long, dwelling alone, withdrawn, diligent, ardent, and resolute, the
venerable Vacchagotta, by realizing for himself with direct knowledge, here
and now entered upon and abided in that supreme goal of the holy life ...
He directly knew:"Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had
to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being."
And the venerable Vacchagotta became one of the arahants."

Vacchagotta says that he has attained all that can be attained by a sekha, and he
asks for further instruction. He is told to develop serenity and insight. He goes
into seclusion and develops these. He is, at this point, an asekha. He succeeds in
his efforts and becomes an arahant.

Regards, Vincent.
vinasp
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Re: The stages of the path.

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

"... and so Wisdom recurs at the end of the Path as liberating 'insight' or
'understanding'. This recurrence of Wisdom is sometimes recognised by the
addition of a further two limbs to the Path, sammanana 'right knowledge'
and sammavimutti 'right release'. This is said to be the ten-fold Path of
the 'adept', in contrast with the eight-fold Path of the 'learner'.(11)"

"Note 11: 'Learner' (sekho), 'adept' (asekho). D.II.217, III.271; M.I.42; A.II.89,
V.221."

[Selfless Persons, Steven Collins, Cambridge, 1982,1990, page 90.]

This is probably where I got the idea from. The key question seems to be: are these
ten 'qualities' [dhammaa -plural] path factors which have to be developed?

The references are to: DN 18.27, DN 33.3.3.(6), MN 8.12, AN 4.89, AN 10.111

Regards, Vincent.
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