Interesting Thought - Painkillers? Anti-depressants?

[Annapurna]

But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him,l that this is good for Angulimala, as this way, in terms of his karma, even mentions hell...

[Annapurna]

One more time, overlooked a mistake...

But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him, that this is actually good for Angulimala, in terms of his karma, and he even mentions hell...

[theY]

But you know the story of Angulimala, don't you, Mike?

And there the Buddha says to Angulimala, who is complaining that the villagers treat him badly, and throw things at him,l that this is good for Angulimala, as this way, in terms of his karma, even mentions hell...

That is the individual way, that selected by Sabbaññutañāṇa, to practice himself, Angulimala, to enlightenment.

Angulimala case similar to unendurable patient, because he hadn't another way to enlighten.

If it is unnecessary for enlightenment, even arahanta may avoid some karma to observe attha of another person, such as mahāMogullāna's death case.

P.S. I think we should believe in the doctor, because we all have known that the doctor just give a drug to unendurable patient case.

----------------------------------

edit: unendurable -> unconsciousness

[Annapurna]

I'm not sure what you mean with "unconscious patient..."

"unconscious" is someone who passed out, fainted, fell into a coma...

Do yiou mean the same?

[theY]

^

Thank you.

I have edited.

I couldn't recall "unendurable" word when I began that reply.

English is very hard .

[Annapurna]

Hah! I know, I am struggling myself!

Thank you. You mean unendurable pain. There is such a thing...

In earlier days, some painful illnesses so consumed a patient's energy and will to live, that it produced a high suicide rate. Now, we have figured out some help...

[danieLion]

Ther are many types of pain, and classifications constantly change. When the side effect/relief calculus comes out postive on the relief side, one resumes "normal" functioning; when it comes out on positive on the side effect side, one "gets high", or, worse dependent or addicted. Certain chronic pain conditions come out about even, give or take a few quantas (and depending also on the drug used).

For pain that can lead even arhants to suicide see:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12221&start=40#p186393

If Buddhism taught (and I don't believe it does except from cruel hearted, puritanical adherents) that physical ailments are due to kamma, then I want nothing to do with Buddhism. As a social scientist, I call that blaming the victim and as Buddhist religionsist a slippery slope to neglect of the needy.

[theY]

^

1. Nearly all of vinaya rules, the Buddha except 4 persons form the rules-- any bhikkhu who is insane, possessed by spirits, delirious with pain, or the first offender(s). So, if bikkhu have blanket exemptions, layman must allowed it, too.

Blanket exemptions. In addition to bhikkhus who do not know they are being assaulted or do not give their consent when they do know, the Vibhaṅga states that there are four special categories of bhikkhus exempted from a penalty under this rule: any bhikkhu who is insane, possessed by spirits, delirious with pain, or the first offender(s) (in this case, Ven. Sudinna and the bhikkhu with the monkey) whose actions prompted the Buddha to formulate the rule. The Commentary defines as insane anyone who "goes about in an unseemly way, with deranged perceptions, having cast away all sense of shame and compunction, not knowing whether he has transgressed major or minor training rules." It recognizes this as a medical condition, which it blames on the bile. As for spirit possession, it says that this can happen either when spirits frighten one or when, by distracting one with sensory images, they insert their hands into one's heart by way of one's mouth (!). Whatever the cause, it notes that insane and possessed bhikkhus are exempt from penalties they incur only when their perceptions are deranged ("when their mindfulness is entirely forgotten and they don't know what fire, gold, excrement, and sandalwood are") and not from any they incur during their lucid moments. As for a bhikkhu delirious with pain, he is exempt from penalties he incurs only during periods when the pain is so great that he does not know what he is doing.

These four categories are exempted from penalties under nearly all of the rules, although the first offender for each rule is exempted only for the one time he acted in such a way as to provoke the Buddha into formulating the rule. I will only rarely mention these categories again, and — except where expressly stated otherwise — the reader should bear them in mind as exempt in every case.

Blanket exemptions 1st: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch04.html

I confirm that article, because I had read that from original pali.

Please, sympathize with us, puritanical adherents, we don't have cruel heart. Only some people of us less knowledge more than they should know for this topic. However, they trying to follow the buddha, that's great.

I think, we can't completely call someone cruel heart, if we have not tried every right way, also it should be the best make sense way, to teach them.



2. Commentary wrote similar to 'channathera was not arahanta, or ariya while himself suicide.'

Why ?

-Arahants can't do anything without reasons considering--paññā, if that doings aren't general--because that actions had completely considered, before. And actually auicide is just a stupid action, that channathera had done it by akusalacitta.

-Auicide just success by dosa-citta--paṭighasaṅyojana, that all arahants, and anāgāmī had complete burned up.

[BubbaBuddhist]

Annapurna, your story about the doc reminds me of my aunt Linda's last days, and an ethical conflict between me and another family member.

Linda had a series of stokes and was in the hospital. At this time she was reasonably functional, and on my brithday (after consulting with the staff) I brought her a piece of cake and some pizza from my party. After the hospital food she cried out "I Loooove you!" and dug in. A few days later she had another series of stokes which left her unable to speak coherently and was transferred to hospice, waiting to die. My other aunt, Liz, who Aunt Linda didn't like very much, flew in to sit with her. Aunt Liz fretted over everything and had driven us all crazy when my mother was dying. It was sort of her job in the family; to come in, try to run things, make a mess of everything, and make everyone wish they were dead too.

Because of the strokes, Linda couldn't speak, but she was a nurse and had once worked with the deaf. By a fortunate fruiting of kamma, I'd studied Amslan, (American Sign Language) in high school for my language requirement, and at family get-togethers she and I used to silently mock other family members secretly in front of them. She was my favorite aunt because she was feisty, mischievous, rebellious, antisocial, told everyone to go to hell, lived life under her own terms--in short, we were just alike. So I could communicate with her even though she couldn't speak.

She had difficulty swallowing so the nurses had made the mistake of telling my Aunt Liz Linda couldn't be given liquids without the risk of aspirating them into her lungs. Notice this wasn't a commandment, but a disclaimer, basically medical personnel covering their rear ends. But Liz, literal minded and insensitive to nuance, wasn't allowing Linda to drink anything. When I got there Linda was pitching a fit. I asked Linda what she wanted, and she signed she wanted a cola. Linda and I had a silent conversation and I explained the risks, Linda had worked as a nurse and understood. There was nothing wrong with her mind. It was her body that was failing her. She also asked me, with embellishment and profanity (yes, there are quite expressive signs for profanity, some for which there are no English equivalents) to kill Liz for her, but I declined. I relayed Linda's wish (for the cola, not the homicide) and Liz refused. Linda howled. I went out to the hall and asked the nurse who repeated that Linda might aspirate the fluid. I asked what would happen, and the nurse said she could get pneumonia. I asked, "How long is she expected to live?" Nurse said, "Two days at the most," I said, "So what difference does it make? Let me talk to the doctor."

Doc told me he said Linda could have liquids with an eye dropper to reduce the risk of aspiration, but it would still probably happen. He also said Liz was scared to do it. I said, give me the damned dropper. I obtained an ice-cold cola and over Liz's objections, fed Linda small drops and you would have thought it was ambrosia. I knew probably half of it went into her lungs and hastened her death, but I took the responsibility.

My ex-wife (don't ask how she got involved, that's another convoluted melodrama for another day) later informed me Liz said I'd killed Linda, but who the hell cares. I made her last hours comfortable. Anyway, she fell asleep that night, never woke up, and passed away peacefully, with a low morphine dose from what I understand.

Not sure what the current theorists of kamma would speculate about these series of actions, and maybe I did hasten her death, but I know doing nothing would have tormented me forever. So as for these docs who walk near or even cross the borderline of euthanasia of dying patients who are near death anyway, I don't point any judgmental fingers. I'm only 52 but several friends near my age and even younger have discorporated, so any morning I wake up alive it's with a feeling of surprise. Death may come at us like a thief in the night or with plenty of advance notice, so how would we deal with it? Who knows? I don't. I only hope if I wind up helpless someone will have the sense and compassion to bring me a drink, but make mine a cognac, please.

BB

[greggorious]

I take anti depressants because a professional doctor and therapist want advise me too. To say that someone suffers from depression because they don't follow the dharma is ridiculous.

[Annapurna]

Bubbabuddhist, that was a great story!
You have a talent to write...are you using it...?

Thinking about Morphine....my fate could have easily taken another course...

In my small town, back in the days where you'd listen to the Stones and friends, and witness Jimi and Janis walk away from us, I grew up sheltered, BUT so close to abysses, in hindsight I am shocked...

There was this guy who looked like Mick Jagger and was sooo charming all he needed to do was smile and the little bees (girls) would fly around him and feel entranced.

I'd sit in the youth center (where all the teens met and listened to music and smoked their first cigarettes) , I'd drink a coke and shyly look around, and he would walk in and be Mr. Hip(pie) and be so cool we all wanted his attention.

One day, I got his attention....he walked over to me and we were soon talking like friends. I felt soo flattered that he had noticed me at all, and after all, wasn't that what I'd dreamt of? He was so much older, and could have had all the older girls, he couldn't be seriously interested in a thin, freckled teen with braces, could he....?

Well...he steered the conversation into asking me about my Dad's practice and stuff and finally after he felt confident I had swallowed his rap hook line and sinker he asked me if I knew where my father kept his ampullae and so forth...and if I knew where the key was... asked if there was any Morphine, said the name, I recognized it...

And he casually asked me if I'd steal one ...or more...and give it to him and he'd give me a lot of money for each. I mean a LOT, for my understanding.

It would have been easy for me and it would have never gotten cleared up who took it, if it had been noticed at all, I just didn't know. Maybe staff would have been questioned and my Dad would have believed he'd used it and forgotten about it...

But I could not bear the idea of lying to my father, of betraying his trust like this, of being disloyal to the most loyal friend I ever had...and of being a possible target of blackmail thereafter....

So I slowly told my Mr. Dealer, I could not do it and we parted on friendly terms...

But imagine what might have become of me if I had...?

I dare not think about it, but Mr. Hip served time in jail later...

Strange, when I think about it, I always moved in musician circles and witnessed a lot of drug consumption...




My drug is chocolate.... how good it's legal!!!!

[BubbaBuddhist]

Thank you annapurna. if you're curious about my literary output peruse amazon.com and look up my nom-de-plume Jon Saint Germain.
BB

[Annapurna]

Thank you!

I have read books about this before, but not with a karma aspect. Hope I have enough money soon to buy one!

Do you also describe mixed hands?

Because mine seem a mix of all....

And say Hi to Checkers for me....I had a July and a Jeannie. Loved them like my own children.

[marc108]

I am wondering if from a certain perspective, one might see this as trying to "dodge Karma" by diminishing or not experiencing the pain. If perhaps, you are trading the Karmic consequence of the headache or what have you for a different consequence, and in so doing, "delaying" bad Karma.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part1-b

Unlike the theory of linear causality — which led the Vedists and Jains to see the relationship between an act and its result as predictable and tit-for-tat — the principle of this/that conditionality makes that relationship inherently complex. The results of kamma experienced at any one point in time come not only from past kamma, but also from present kamma. This means that, although there are general patterns relating habitual acts to corresponding results [§9], there is no set one-for-one, tit-for-tat, relationship between a particular action and its results. Instead, the results are determined by the context of the act, both in terms of actions that preceded or followed it [§11] and in terms one's state of mind at the time of acting or experiencing the result [§13]. As we noted in the Introduction, the feedback loops inherent in this/that conditionality mean that the working out of any particular cause-effect relationship can be very complex indeed.

[Radman622]

Thanks everybody for your thoughtful and contemplative responses. I noted a few of you were saying you were having a bit of difficulty with English - if anyone would like, I'd be more than happy to lend a hand with this, since I am a native English speaker.

That was my understanding too, that Kamma is not so... linear is people like to make it seem, but I was interested in the perspectives everyone would have. So far the best argument against taking them (of your own will, of course) is the argument of disrupted mindfulness, but I think it's also true that pain can interfere with mindfulness, and that there is nothing we can do about pain.

From my readings in Buddhist philosophy, pain =/= suffering. Pain is physical and suffering is mental. Pain can cause suffering, but only if you allow it to, and even pleasure can cause suffering.

[theY]

^

Thank you!

We can modify everything of some vipaaka before they arising status will be stable, may at arising moment or before that.

But, the most of native buddhist country didn't act like that, they try to living follow vipaaka, more than kamma, love effects but hat to do their cause.

[mikenz66]

Members,

Please note the TOS guidelines on mental illness.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2

Direct advice on treatments are not permitted.


Mike

[Radman622]

Oh! Mikenz, it didn't occur to me! I apologize. I will add a disclaimer to my original post if that would be acceptable.

[mikenz66]

Hi Radman,

My comment was not directed at you, it was referring to a post that has been deleted. As explained here discussing the pros and cons of various treatments is fine. It is specific medical advice to members who are suffering from serious conditions that is not allowed.


Mike

[Radman622]

Oh, well it's good to know that I was not breaking the rules accidentally, as this was not my intention. Thanks for clarifying.