Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

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Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue May 26, 2009 9:15 am

I am thinking here of the general form of dependent origination, "This being, that becomes..." rather than the specific 12 links formulation. It seems to me that this is the basis for anatta, in other words phenomena lack enduring independent essence ( selfhood ) because of the perpetual process of arising and ceasing based on cause and condition ( d.o. )
Am I barking up the wrong tree by making this connection?

Rick
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2009 10:48 am

Greetings Rick,

Yes, you could say both teachings are based on emptiness (sunnata).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed May 27, 2009 8:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Rick,

Yes, you could say both teachings are based on emptiness (sunnata).

Metta,
Retro. :)


Thanks Retro. I can see that anatta has sunnata for it's basis. But isn't dependent arising also the basis for sunnata?

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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 27, 2009 8:35 am

Greetings Rick,

Rick O'Shez wrote:But isn't dependent arising also the basis for sunnata?


Dependent arising, particularly in the sense you're referring to, is virtually synonymous with sunnata.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby cooran » Wed May 27, 2009 8:43 am

Hello Rick,

DN 15 Maha-nidana Sutta The Great Causes Discourse
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I would strongly encourage you to purchase The Great Discourse on Causation The Mahanidana Sutta and its Commentaries ~ translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi. This is possibly the most profound and among the most important discourses spoken by the Buddha.
His book is one hundred and forty pages of explanation:
http://www.bps.lk/translationsfrompali.asp

metta
Chris
Last edited by cooran on Wed May 27, 2009 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 27, 2009 8:47 am

Greetings,

Actually, Chris' recommendation just reminded me of a sutta specifically addressing anatta and dependent origination.

Anattalakkhana Sutta
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Suttas/Ana ... khana.html

in fact, it even addresses the 3 characteristics, as per your other recent topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu May 28, 2009 8:14 am

Chris wrote:Hello Rick,

DN 15 Maha-nidana Sutta The Great Causes Discourse
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Thanks Chris. I've got a copy of this sutta and will dig it out and have another look.

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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu May 28, 2009 1:56 pm

yes, that is correct

dependant origination is possible because things are impermanant
otherwise things would just last and nothing new would arise!

dependant origination is also about the relationship between things- ie one gives rise to the other

things are impermanant because they are dependantly originated- when the cause fades so does the effect

so dependant origination and anicca are very closely linked

since there is anicca- things arising and passing away very quickly -there is nothing to be seen as self or a controller
equally since everything is happening via cause and effect there is no one doing anything- it is just automatic-like a string of dominoes-the illusion of movement where the falling takes places is what we call the self because we cannot see it closely enough. If we focus closely we will see the constituent components giving rise to subsequent components (ie it takes samadhi -a quiet calm concentrated mind to give rise to panna/insight).

in the progress of insight after seeing mind and matter (nama rupa) one sees causality happening in this manner- this then leads to understanding of the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta.

with metta
With Metta

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& Upekkha
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri May 29, 2009 8:57 am

rowyourboat wrote:dependant origination is possible because things are impermanant
otherwise things would just last and nothing new would arise!


Thanks for that. I have reflected quite a lot about the relationship between anicca and DO, it seems like chicken and egg particularly when observing it in practice. Sometimes I view DO as the whole process of dependent arising / ceasing, and in that sense anicca is "built-in" to DO. At other times I reflect that if anicca was not present then everything would be frozen in place because none of the causes and conditions could cease to be.

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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Rhino » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:03 pm

Her is additionally a quote from Bhante Vimalaramsi:
The mind opens when it sees and realizes these twelve links of Dependent Origination directly. As a result, the mind becomes dispassionate and free. This is as true now in present times, as it was 2500 years ago. Any teaching that doesn't highlight the necessity of the Dependent Origination as its realization and final goal or destination, isn't teaching the true path. Currently, many people say that seeing impermanence, suffering, and not-self is realizing nibbina. However, one must note that although these characteristics do lead the way to realizing nibbina and are very important to develop, they don't directly allow one to see the supramundane state of Nibbana. The meditator can see, one or all of the three characteristics of existence, i.e., impermanence, suffering and not-self, without directly seeing Dependent Origination, but, when one sees Dependent Origination directly he will always see all of the three characteristics. According to the first sutta in the Maha Vagga of the Vinaya, it cannot work. any other way.

Source: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/anpnst-vim/part1.htm

With best wishes
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:30 am

Rhino wrote:Here is additionally a quote from Bhante Vimalaramsi:
..... Any teaching that doesn't highlight the necessity of the Dependent Origination as its realization and final goal or destination, isn't teaching the true path.



Thanks for that. He is making quite a strong statement - food for thought.

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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:42 am

Rick O'Shez wrote:
Rhino wrote:Here is additionally a quote from Bhante Vimalaramsi:
..... Any teaching that doesn't highlight the necessity of the Dependent Origination as its realization and final goal or destination, isn't teaching the true path.



Thanks for that. He is making quite a strong statement - food for thought.

Rick


Who sees paticcasamuppada sees Dhamma, who sees Dhamma sees paticcasamuppda. - MN 1 190-1.

The world, as a rule, is fettered by attachment and clinging to things, and is firmly adhering to them. But the learned and noble disciple does no longer attach himself, cling firmly, adhere and incline to the thoughts: 'I have an attaa,' and he knows: 'Merely dukkha that arises, merely dukkha that vanishes.' SN II 17 SN III 135
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Zhalmed Pawo » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:26 pm

According to Je Tsongkhapa (founder of the Tibetan Geluk School), dependent origination and selflessness (or emptiness) of phenomena are the same. This happens to conform with Theravada sources. (Not all, but most, as the Theravada is a huge and varieted School.)

For instance, in one Pali Sutta, after the Buddha has explained the dependant origination, Ananda says that it was a nice and easy teaching, easy for everyone to understand, to which Buddha comments that "do not say so, Ananda, since only because of not understanding dependant origination, living beings are trapped in samsara, so this dependent origination is not easy to see at all". Usually 'the escape' is presented as selflessness or emptiness, but here the Buddha says that it is dependent origination.

They are same same.
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby Ben » Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:29 pm

Dear ZP and all

Please take the time to cite the sources that you rely upon in your discussions.
Many thanks

Ben
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Re: Is dependent arising the basis for anatta?

Postby cooran » Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:24 pm

Zhalmed Pawo wrote:According to Je Tsongkhapa (founder of the Tibetan Geluk School), dependent origination and selflessness (or emptiness) of phenomena are the same. This happens to conform with Theravada sources. (Not all, but most, as the Theravada is a huge and varieted School.)

For instance, in one Pali Sutta, after the Buddha has explained the dependant origination, Ananda says that it was a nice and easy teaching, easy for everyone to understand, to which Buddha comments that "do not say so, Ananda, since only because of not understanding dependant origination, living beings are trapped in samsara, so this dependent origination is not easy to see at all". Usually 'the escape' is presented as selflessness or emptiness, but here the Buddha says that it is dependent origination.

They are same same.

Hello Zhalmed Pawo, all,

I think this is from here:
There Ven. Ananda approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."
[The Buddha:] "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#ananda

I have always loved Ven. Ananda ... he makes all the same mistakes most of us do, and I learn so much from them.

metta
Chris
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