Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Individual » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:55 pm

Annabel wrote:Indi, does quantity equal qualiiy? :smile:

In scientific journals, yes, because the replicability of an experiment is the basis for its reliability. If a scientific study is reliable, it should generate the same results over and over again, regardless of who does the study and how well-controlled it is. So, an individual study in a scientific journal can be [i]very[/] good and generates amazing results, but if 90% of all re-attempts at the same study, or similar studies, results in a different result, then reliability of the original study is brought into question. Sometimes, this can result in the author of the original study claiming that his work was improperly replicated, recommending methods of controlling the conditions more effectively and, with time, many studies confirm his results. Or, as in the case of homeopathy, study after study continues to undermine it and so, it's regarded as a dubious result.

Annabel wrote:Also: the overwhelming majority of doctors have to pay off expensive high tech machines, and so they have to make as much money as possible. This is only possible if you wave a new patient in every 10 minutes, or sooner, and write out a quick prescription for : antibiotic, antidepressant, cortison, betablocker, painkiller, hallu-killer,etc.

The reason doctors spend a little amount of time with the patient is because of the shortage of doctors, being a very small ratio to the number of patients. Because of the high cost (mental and financial) to go to medical school. So, he has nurses and others that assist doing the minor work for him. He doesn't spend hours investigating because he doesn't need to go: A diagnosis for a known disease is not the same thing as researching a new disease. If the disease or problem is a known one, it's simply a matter of examining the symptoms and looking it up in a book. This can be done in minutes, in many cases, unless there's need for additional tests, like radiology work, biopsies, endoscopy, etc..

Annabel wrote:"Patient gets skin irritations of all sorts only in winter,is completely free of it in summer."

That's a pretty ambiguous description! What's the cause? What type of rash? Where does the rash occur? "In winter," in cold weather or just in winter? What's the prognosis of not getting treatment?

Annabel wrote:My father had tuberculosis as a boy, but completely healed from it.

However, I had Tuberculosis symptoms often , without having the infection...

Is it possible that you could be creating a fictitious sense of illness, or misinterpreting common cold symptoms as "tuberculosis" symptoms?

Annabel wrote:Samul Hahnemann concluded,that people must somehow pass on toxins of past infections to their offsprings, children, and in thisway, certain tendencies run in a family. They get "inherited".
[/quote]
What is a "toxin," physically? Where is it and what does it look like? And what is its mechanism for transmission?

Again, all of this is just pseudoscience...
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Individual » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:57 pm

Annabel wrote:Homeopathy ... runs in the same tracks as acupuncture, Tibetan medicine and Ayurveda, albeit younger..

Do you want to dismiss those as witchcraft as well?

To a large degree, yes. Certain herbs and techniques in Tibetan medicine and Ayurveda may be reliable, but they're of no use until they're confirmed experimentally. With acupuncture, it works but not for the superstitious reasons described.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:19 pm

In the words of 'goldie lookin chain': "Guns don't kill people, rappers do"
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Annapurna » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:00 am

Individual wrote:
Annabel wrote:Indi, does quantity equal qualiiy? :smile:

In scientific journals, yes, because the replicability of an experiment is the basis for its reliability. If a scientific study is reliable, it should generate the same results over and over again, regardless of who does the study and how well-controlled it is.


I see that point, Indi, and I am thankful that we have standardized remedies.

However, homeopathic remedies are just as standardized and produced by machines.

The problem with this line of thinking is also, that we forget that human beings are unique. We don't work like robots, and we can't be fixed like cars. Unfortunately......so even if we apply an allopathic remedy to ill persons with the same disease, each will show slightly different reactions, and some will get sick from the remedy, through severe side effects, and some will die from an anaphylactic (allergic) shock or other complications.

Homeopathy however is considered as one of the safest and softest therapies.

You pay the lowest insurance if you practice homeopathy.

There is also a famous study which proved that over 70% of all patients don't die from their disease, but from the sideffects of their allopathic remedies... :jawdrop:

There is no such evidence for homeopathy. :anjali:
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Jechbi » Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:52 pm

That's why some people buy Windex.

In all fairness, I don't think we can say homeopathic medicine kills people. Some folks who believe in it and receive care from homeopathic health practitioners probably experience some benefit. We can say it's just a placebo effect, but the same could be said of conventional medicine in some cases. Just ask your doctor if you don't believe me.

If we want to say that homeopathic medicine kills people, then in all fairness we have to say that conventional medicine kills people, too.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:26 pm

Scientific studies have shown you can't rely on scientific studies. True. Look it up.

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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:11 pm

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Scientific studies have shown you can't rely on scientific studies.

Might as well give up my PhD now then, huh? <rolls eyes>
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:25 pm

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Scientific studies have shown you can't rely on scientific studies. True. Look it up.

J


Actually that is false.

Studies have shown that the studies are selective, 1 study won't encompas the whole subject area but a narrow view according to the researchers criteria and preference.

this isn't saying all studies are reliable, or not but it is not correct to say that all are unreliable, and certain studies such as with medicine continue for years after they are allowed to be prescribed and put to general use.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby sparrowhawk » Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:58 am

Some people seem to have short memory when it is of their convenience...

FDA analysts estimated that Vioxx caused between 88,000 and 139,000 heart attacks, 30 to 40 percent of which were probably fatal, in the five years the drug was on the market.

We must be skeptic, not only of homeopathy, but of conventional medicine itself.
Caveat emptor, always.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:07 am

Was going to make a comment about developing a sense of humor; but decided such would be futile because everyone is having such a good time taking themselves so seriously. <insert smiley of your choice>

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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:36 am

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Was going to make a comment about developing a sense of humor

A kid is dead.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:58 am

Not to defend homeopathy, but straight from the ever-reliable (wink) Wikipedia:
As homeopathic remedies usually contain only water and/or alcohol, they are thought to be generally safe.
The kid is dead because her parents made a horrible mistake.

Another issue (at least in the U.S.) may be access to affordable health-care. Faced with lack of insurance, some folks might just buy the stuff because they don't have a doctor to give them appropriate care, and they don't know any better. So we could say ignorance kills people. Or we could say poverty kills people. And so on.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:52 am

Jechbi wrote:That's why some people buy Windex.

In all fairness, I don't think we can say homeopathic medicine kills people. Some folks who believe in it and receive care from homeopathic health practitioners probably experience some benefit. We can say it's just a placebo effect, but the same could be said of conventional medicine in some cases. Just ask your doctor if you don't believe me.

If we want to say that homeopathic medicine kills people, then in all fairness we have to say that conventional medicine kills people, too.


Hi Jechbi, good post, all in all.

The Placebo effect is of course something that arises in our thoughts, especially when we are not familiar with a method.

The Placebo effect has 2 typical characteristics:

1. It wears off after ~6 weeks,
2. It is impossible for animals to develop it.

However, healings with homeopathy often last lifelong, and animals heal just as well as humans.

I'm a born sceptic, and only use methods that I have tested for months or years.

I am staying with homeopathy because of lasting healings, and effects on animals, seen it myself.


I've discarded other methods that seem to be "New Age imagination bogus" to me.

But perhaps I am only biased, because I don't comprehend or can't feel their subtlety, yet.

I'm not an accomplished Yogi.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Fede » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:19 am

I have been using homoeopathic treatments for the past thirty years and will continue to do so because I know they are effective.
If the British National Health System recognises homoeopathy as a legitimate form of treatment, I don't see why we shouldn't be a bit more open-minded about it....

http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/getting_ ... n_the_nhs/

To dismiss is as magic, hocus-pocus and something purely utilised as a placebo, shows a marked degree of arrogance and ignorance.
It also at a single stroke serves to undervalue and ridicule the thousands of people who have made it their business to work in homoeopathy, and it presupposes those who have used remedies to be at best, deluded and at worst, liars.
Which is not the way I would expect people here to respond....

If I may say so.

What a good thing we do not approach other 'truths' in such a stonewalling :quote: manner..... :roll:
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Jechbi » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:40 pm

But there are solid reasons for skeptical doubt about some of the ideas behind mainstream homeopathy. For example, how can water have "memory"?

I think the concept of treating likes with likes has some basis. Isn't that how allergy shots work, by slowly helping the body to get used to the allergens? But in homeopathy, the dosages are so minute (even non-existent) that it's not clear to me how they could have any effect on the body, short of magic.

Also, if a person is healed, it doesn't make sense to say the placebo effect "wears off." Where did the six-week figure come from?

And I agree we should be open minded, but really, I don't think dismissing homeopathy is a case of arrogance or closed-mindedness. Saying that homeopathy skeptics are closed-minded and arrogant does nothing at all to support the argument in favor of homoepathy.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby Annapurna » Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:31 pm

Jechbi wrote: For example, how can water have "memory"? ....

I think the concept of treating likes with likes has some basis. Isn't that how allergy shots work, by slowly helping the body to get used to the allergens? But in homeopathy, the dosages are so minute (even non-existent) that it's not clear to me how they could have any effect on the body, short of magic.


Hi,again, Jechbi!


Indi, and all... :anjali:

I will make an attempt to explain the theory, if you like.

Yesterday, I was reading a book by the Dalai Lama, and he explained in one chapter our body.

He described, how we all have this material body, that we can touch and see and feel.

Then he explained how we also have a subtle body, and a very subtle body....

When we are sick, the material body is having problems, and we often try to influence it material substances, which we can count and weigh=quantify.

Those are medicines with, for instance, 10 mg of this substance, and 20 mg of that substance, and so forth. You get the drift, don't you?

Okay.
Now here we are dealing with material substances, but they don't make ALL of our reality.

There are also the subtle bodies that the Dalai Lama explains.


We are alive, when our physical body is connected with our awareness.

If they part, we die.

In the case of a natural death,the progress of death follows a certain pattern.

First, the 25 less subtle factors dissolve.

For instance, the senses, like clear vision decrease...

After the heartbeat and breathing stops, a doctor would declare the person as dead.

However, in Buddhist texts, says HHDL,the being is still in the process of dying.The mental awareness is still there .That doesn't mean we can return to life though.

Within the mental awareness, there are many levels, which are of different sublety.

The general nature of "Geist" (mind,spirit,awareness?) is pure light and realization.


So....one could say,-roughly-and to make it short:

We've have material remedies on this planet ,and subtle remedies.

In the highest,most sublte dilutions, Homeopathic remedies carry nothing but the energetic information of the original substance.

All information has´been pressed into the water molecules,through heavy and severe shakes.

The shakes are likethis:

You take a small bottle with 100 drops of water,and one drop of and substance and hit the bottle 30 times with one hand onto the other.

The water seems to get "impregnated" with the molecular form of the substance, and stays "impressed", literally so. We have created a Centesimal dilution. =C 1.

Next step:

You take only one drop of this C 1, add 100 drops of fresh water, and hit the bottle 30 times onto your other hand. = C 2.

Repeating this will bring you to C 3, C4, C 5, C6, C 200 etc.

While the dilution is getting thinner and thinner, the information still doesn't get lost, only becomes more subtle, and very very subtle.

Since our body is not only physical, but also subtle energy and awareness, we can benefit from interventions with both material and subtle remedies.

The mind is the origin of all mental and physical impurities.


I hope very much that my explanation was good.
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Re: Homeopathic medicine kills people.

Postby nathan » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:49 am

I'd just like to point out that there isn't a single drug in the world that can produce 100% consistent results. That is the benchmark for 'science', 100% replicability. So, to put it simply, to say that drug treatments are science is bullsh_t, it's witchcraft just as surely as homeopathy is, if, in fact, that is what it is, which seems doubtful. Don't witches fly around on brooms or something? They're aviation enthusiasts then, right? Or so we are told, according to leading sources. Having seen innumerable saturday morning cartoons on the subject and so forth, I feel qualified to say, yes, surely they must be aviation enthusiasts.

There, that should settle things once and for all.

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