Vipassana Jhanas?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Micheal Kush
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Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

Hey everyone, after reading much material delving into the methodological systems of Jhana and Vipassana, I've decided to combine them resembling Mahasi Sadyaws style of teaching. However, I am helplessly confused on how to do it or where to start.

Please tell me if this is correct:

1. One starts by attending to the breath at either the abdomen or the nostri :woohoo: ls noting rise and fall and just following the breathing as it enters in and out.

2. After a establishing a settled type of conentration, one then dwells contemplating the body and various sensations that arise during it. You take that as an object and continue to focus on it.

3. This continues on with the four frames of mindfullness or aggregates.

Is this correct? And how exactly does one reach jhana with this method?

The idea is very vaugue to me but considering i find vipassana more....enjoyable if you will, I am still willing to pursue the jhanas, and the fact that I prefer these practices conjoined, not seperated.

With metta, mike

P.S sorry if I didnt elaborate my steps and I apologize if their too vauge. I am juat looking for a set of precise instructions regarding the practice, thanx.
twelph
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by twelph »

At least for me, continuing to do what you have already described helps a lot. I wouldn't worry about what kind of meditation you are doing, as Jhana is just the word for meditation anyways. If the method you are using is enjoyable, then I would say stick with it. Some of the biggest set backs i have encountered in my practice involves deciding to try something new even though what I was doing previously was working just fine.
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Michael,

"Vipassana Jhana" is a term that I think was coined by U Pandita. He discusses the development of the jhana factors as part of Mahasi-style practice.
There is some discussion and some references here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11742" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What you are describing above sounds like Mahasi-style practice. One has a "primary object" (rise and fall of abdomen or motion and sensations when walking) and the "secondary objects" are observed as they arise. You might find the introductory talk here by Patrick Kearney useful:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/Bodhi% ... _2011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
Micheal Kush
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Michael,
Micheal Kush wrote: And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.
Yes, either order, or in tandem:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's what the approach you describe tends to do.

:anjali:
Mike
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Ben
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Michael,
My recommendation is to go with a tried and tested methodology rather than attempting to reinvent the wheel.
While U Pandita may have coined the term, the term does have currency amongst the many varied sub-traditions of Burmese Theravada.
kind regards,

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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twelph
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by twelph »

Micheal Kush wrote:@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike
Things becoming boring is definitely a hindrance. As a suggestion, I've found that a very strong interest in the breathe and how it's affecting your body along with your mind can be infinitely engrossing.
Micheal Kush
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

@ Ben, well of course Im far too inexperienced to reinvenr the wheel. I feel Mahasi Sadyaws style suits me best and I can honestly say that after reflecting my first session doing this practice, it presents a refreshing expierence. Of course, i wont be saying this when pain is throbbing in my body and that becomes my object of focus. I will test it and see how it goes.

My premier goal is to progress in my meditation via the factors of consistency, concentration, duration and overall, mindfulness.

Thanks for the input folks

With metta, kike
Micheal Kush
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Micheal Kush »

twelph wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote:@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike
Things becoming boring is definitely a hindrance. As a suggestion, I've found that a very strong interest in the breathe and how it's affecting your body along with your mind can be infinitely engrossing.
You see, coming from attachment to decorative ornamentation and the like, sometimes I find it extremely difficult to find something utterly interesting in something mundane as the breath. I have a kiking to thinking in concepts and when I think of the breath, it strikes me as rather dull. Though there are some instances when the breath does become a great companion.

With metta, mike
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

Where in the suttas does the Buddha ever mention two types of Jhana? I can't think of a single time.

How can you cultivate Jhana factors in Mahasi Vipassana if all Jhana after the first leave behind directed and sustained thought?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
twelph
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by twelph »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Where in the suttas does the Buddha ever mention two types of Jhana? I can't think of a single time.

How can you cultivate Jhana factors in Mahasi Vipassana if all Jhana after the first leave behind directed and sustained thought?
This is very important. There are several threads discussing this, but they are quite large and filled with a lot of other things that might be hard to wade through. Is there a simplified article or discussion that would be good to point people towards?
daverupa
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by daverupa »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:leave behind directed and sustained thought?
This probably isn't the best translation of vitakka-vicara, but you do bring up a good point re: different sorts of jhana. The modern attempts to rekindle the meditation tradition aren't quite willing to admit they're finding their way anew, it seems to me.
Last edited by daverupa on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by tiltbillings »

Here is a talk aboiut the vipassana jhanas by a highly experienced and knowledgable teacher:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/305/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Another jhana debate starting? I think the existing ones ("the great jhana debate" and "the jhanas acording to the pali nikayas") are informative, exaustive, and well worth the time spent reading. From these discussions everybody knows what vipassana jhanas, sutta jhanas and visuddhimagga jhanas are.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
daverupa
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Post by daverupa »

I think there is value in the occasional digest of these issues. That there is debate over such practical matters goes to the very core of the how one integrates the Dhamma into ones life.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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