Vipassana Jhanas?

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Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Micheal Kush » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:52 pm

Hey everyone, after reading much material delving into the methodological systems of Jhana and Vipassana, I've decided to combine them resembling Mahasi Sadyaws style of teaching. However, I am helplessly confused on how to do it or where to start.

Please tell me if this is correct:

1. One starts by attending to the breath at either the abdomen or the nostri :woohoo: ls noting rise and fall and just following the breathing as it enters in and out.

2. After a establishing a settled type of conentration, one then dwells contemplating the body and various sensations that arise during it. You take that as an object and continue to focus on it.

3. This continues on with the four frames of mindfullness or aggregates.

Is this correct? And how exactly does one reach jhana with this method?

The idea is very vaugue to me but considering i find vipassana more....enjoyable if you will, I am still willing to pursue the jhanas, and the fact that I prefer these practices conjoined, not seperated.

With metta, mike

P.S sorry if I didnt elaborate my steps and I apologize if their too vauge. I am juat looking for a set of precise instructions regarding the practice, thanx.
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby twelph » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:15 pm

At least for me, continuing to do what you have already described helps a lot. I wouldn't worry about what kind of meditation you are doing, as Jhana is just the word for meditation anyways. If the method you are using is enjoyable, then I would say stick with it. Some of the biggest set backs i have encountered in my practice involves deciding to try something new even though what I was doing previously was working just fine.
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:19 pm

Hi Michael,

"Vipassana Jhana" is a term that I think was coined by U Pandita. He discusses the development of the jhana factors as part of Mahasi-style practice.
There is some discussion and some references here:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11742

What you are describing above sounds like Mahasi-style practice. One has a "primary object" (rise and fall of abdomen or motion and sensations when walking) and the "secondary objects" are observed as they arise. You might find the introductory talk here by Patrick Kearney useful:
http://www.dharmasalon.net/Audio/Bodhi% ... _2011.html

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Micheal Kush » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:26 pm

@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:30 pm

Hi Michael,
Micheal Kush wrote: And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

Yes, either order, or in tandem:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
That's what the approach you describe tends to do.

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:49 pm

Greetings Michael,
My recommendation is to go with a tried and tested methodology rather than attempting to reinvent the wheel.
While U Pandita may have coined the term, the term does have currency amongst the many varied sub-traditions of Burmese Theravada.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby twelph » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:03 pm

Micheal Kush wrote:@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike


Things becoming boring is definitely a hindrance. As a suggestion, I've found that a very strong interest in the breathe and how it's affecting your body along with your mind can be infinitely engrossing.
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Micheal Kush » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:06 pm

@ Ben, well of course Im far too inexperienced to reinvenr the wheel. I feel Mahasi Sadyaws style suits me best and I can honestly say that after reflecting my first session doing this practice, it presents a refreshing expierence. Of course, i wont be saying this when pain is throbbing in my body and that becomes my object of focus. I will test it and see how it goes.

My premier goal is to progress in my meditation via the factors of consistency, concentration, duration and overall, mindfulness.

Thanks for the input folks

With metta, kike
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Micheal Kush » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:11 pm

twelph wrote:
Micheal Kush wrote:@ Mikenz, thanx for the link. I will be sure to investigate on the matter.

@ twelph. The reason I mainly switched up my practice, to be quite honest, is because I thought Visidigmuggah jhana style to be boring. However, my aim for Jhana is still not quenched and I believe the Vipassana Jhana method is quite right for me. And to the contrary notion that calm precedes insight, I have heard by many that insight eventually develops calm or tranquil meditation. Well, i guess it ls a matter of preference.

With metta, mike


Things becoming boring is definitely a hindrance. As a suggestion, I've found that a very strong interest in the breathe and how it's affecting your body along with your mind can be infinitely engrossing.


You see, coming from attachment to decorative ornamentation and the like, sometimes I find it extremely difficult to find something utterly interesting in something mundane as the breath. I have a kiking to thinking in concepts and when I think of the breath, it strikes me as rather dull. Though there are some instances when the breath does become a great companion.

With metta, mike
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:22 pm

Where in the suttas does the Buddha ever mention two types of Jhana? I can't think of a single time.

How can you cultivate Jhana factors in Mahasi Vipassana if all Jhana after the first leave behind directed and sustained thought?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby twelph » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:30 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Where in the suttas does the Buddha ever mention two types of Jhana? I can't think of a single time.

How can you cultivate Jhana factors in Mahasi Vipassana if all Jhana after the first leave behind directed and sustained thought?


This is very important. There are several threads discussing this, but they are quite large and filled with a lot of other things that might be hard to wade through. Is there a simplified article or discussion that would be good to point people towards?
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:31 pm

LonesomeYogurt wrote:leave behind directed and sustained thought?


This probably isn't the best translation of vitakka-vicara, but you do bring up a good point re: different sorts of jhana. The modern attempts to rekindle the meditation tradition aren't quite willing to admit they're finding their way anew, it seems to me.
Last edited by daverupa on Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:33 pm

Here is a talk aboiut the vipassana jhanas by a highly experienced and knowledgable teacher:

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/305/
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:39 pm

Another jhana debate starting? I think the existing ones ("the great jhana debate" and "the jhanas acording to the pali nikayas") are informative, exaustive, and well worth the time spent reading. From these discussions everybody knows what vipassana jhanas, sutta jhanas and visuddhimagga jhanas are.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:41 pm

I think there is value in the occasional digest of these issues. That there is debate over such practical matters goes to the very core of the how one integrates the Dhamma into ones life.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:Another jhana debate starting? I think the existing ones ("the great jhana debate" and "the jhanas acording to the pali nikayas") are informative, exaustive, and well worth the time spent reading. From these discussions everybody knows what vipassana jhanas, sutta jhanas and visuddhimagga jhanas are.
Don't complain; give us the links to these various discussions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:48 pm

Well it's hard to ask exactly how one integrates Vipassana Jhanas into one's practice without getting into exactly what a Vipassana Jhana is, or if they even exist separate from traditional Jhana.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:52 pm

The thing is, tilt, dave, that there will be no better debates than those i mentioned. People should read them in order to form an opinion.

I also admit that it's anoying to me seeing every thread that has a question about jhana, even if the asker has an opinion of what jhana is, turn into a jhana debate. It deviates from the topic. And with this I'm deviating from the topic, so i'll shut up now.

PS: there's a search function in this forum. no need to babysit other members.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:02 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Well it's hard to ask exactly how one integrates Vipassana Jhanas into one's practice without getting into exactly what a Vipassana Jhana is, or if they even exist separate from traditional Jhana.
It depends upon whose definition of "traditional jhana," and as to what vipassana jhanas are, listen to the inked talk above.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana Jhanas?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:04 am

Micheal Kush wrote:Please tell me if this is correct:

1. One starts by attending to the breath at either the abdomen or the nostri :woohoo: ls noting rise and fall and just following the breathing as it enters in and out.

2. After a establishing a settled type of conentration, one then dwells contemplating the body and various sensations that arise during it. You take that as an object and continue to focus on it.

3. This continues on with the four frames of mindfullness or aggregates.

Is this correct? And how exactly does one reach jhana with this method?

The idea is very vaugue to me but considering i find vipassana more....enjoyable if you will, I am still willing to pursue the jhanas, and the fact that I prefer these practices conjoined, not seperated.

With metta, mike

What you're describing here is almost exactly the definition of Anapanasati:
"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

If you like the idea of Vipassana/Samatha together instead of separated, then Ajahn Chah, Buddhadasa, and other Thai Forest Tradition teachers are far more up your alley than Mahasi, who, for better or for worse, is keen on the separation of the two.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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