Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi ignobleone,

Sorry, I have read and listened to quite a lot of Ven Thanissaro, and his version of Jhana certainly seemed to be in the "softer" category, but I don't have any very good references. I thought he discussed this in his Wings to Awakening book, but I'm afraid I can't find the passage I was thinking of.

For Ajahn Brahm see his book "Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond". There are various things on the internet discussing this, such as:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jhana_ins ... ssage/2722

I provided particular quote to the Visuddhimagga, in reply to your
"A couple of clues you cannot find in commentaries", the point being that I can.
To which you reply:
Regarding the passage from Visuddhimagga, let me repeat that I never said all commentaries for all topics are misleading. I used some instead of all. That means, not all commentaries are inconsistent.

Which is fine, but why the dismissive tone then?

I certainly don't think that all commentaries (or all teachers, or all posters on the internet...) are infallible either. And it it useful to have inconsistencies (real or apparent) pointed out. So if you have some specific comments regarding inconsistencies between Suttas and Commentaries to discuss, that would be interesting.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 am

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, I have read and listened to quite a lot of Ven Thanissaro, and his version of Jhana certainly seemed to be in the "softer" category, but I don't have any very good references. I thought he discussed this in his Wings to Awakening book, but I'm afraid I can't find the passage I was thinking of.

Hi mikenz, what does "softer" category mean?

I provided particular quote to the Visuddhimagga, in reply to your
"A couple of clues you cannot find in commentaries", the point being that I can.
To which you reply:
Regarding the passage from Visuddhimagga, let me repeat that I never said all commentaries for all topics are misleading. I used some instead of all. That means, not all commentaries are inconsistent.

Which is fine, but why the dismissive tone then?

Oh I see what you want to say with the Visuddhimagga passage. But hold on, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Here I include the passage again:
Visuddhimagga Chapter X wrote:
19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that
it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first
jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the
imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their t state of
peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw
the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them
while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).

Maybe you think I don't have Visuddhimagga. I do have a complete one in PDF. After a closer reading including some paragraphs above the passage, you will find:
1. The passage talks about the immaterial attainment (infinite space)
2. Thus Alara Kalama didn't hear the sound of the five hundred carts while he was in the immaterial attainment, not the 1st jhana
3. A closer look at: "that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána" in the context of the whole paragraph, concludes that in the 1st jhana one still can perceive sound, only in the immaterial attainment one cannot (see #2 above). This is misleading.

So, how do you think? I think you fail to point out that I was wrong.
I'd suggest you to read things carefully, read the whole scope, don't read partially.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:26 am

Hi Ignobleone,

By "softer" I mean states where one is aware of sensory input. As opposed to the model where one is isolated from sensory input.
ignobleone wrote:3. A closer look at: "that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána" in the context of the whole paragraph, concludes that in the 1st jhana one still can perceive sound, only in the immaterial attainment one cannot (see #2 above). This is misleading.

Sorry, it was just the first example I could come up with of the Commentaries referring to passages similar to the one you quoted. In fact, the interpretation that it is an immaterial attainment is the commentary. It's not clear from the passage itself (which I think is the passage that you were originally referring to):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
37. "Now what do you think, Pukkusa? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with — that a man, while conscious and awake, should not see a great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed him by one after another, nor hear the noise, or that one conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, should neither see it nor hear the noise?"



Can you provide the sutta reference that states that one cannot hear sound in first Jhana?

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:30 am

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, it was just the first example I could come up with of the Commentaries referring to passages similar to the one you quoted. In fact, the interpretation that it is an immaterial attainment is the commentary. It's not clear from the passage itself (which I think is the passage that you were originally referring to):
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
37. "Now what do you think, Pukkusa? What is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with — that a man, while conscious and awake, should not see a great number of carts, even five hundred carts, that passed him by one after another, nor hear the noise, or that one conscious and awake, in the midst of a heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing, and thunderbolts crashing, should neither see it nor hear the noise?"

Yes, Buddhaghosa is likely to have interpreted the passage. We don't know why he translated it as immaterial attainment since the passage doesn't say it. This is an example why I don't trust commentary like Visuddhimagga. Also notice that Buddhaghosa came from Hinduism/Vedic background.

Can you provide the sutta reference that states that one cannot hear sound in first Jhana?

To be more precise, I think it's more appropriate to say: "cannot perceive sound".
There's no single sutta which says exactly like that. But the claim is supported by at least three sutta references I could find:
1. DN 9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html look for this passage:
"Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases."
2. AN 9.31 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.031.than.html says:
"When one has attained the first jhāna, the perception of sensuality has been stopped."
3. AN 10.72 - Kantaka Sutta (kantaka=thorn). There's no translation of this sutta at accesstoinsight.org, only the pali version available. But you can find one at Leigh Brasington website http://www.leighb.com/an10_72.htm which I think is not quite correct translation.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:59 am

Hi Ignobleone,

Thanks for gathering those together. Those passages still depend somewhat on the interpretation. And interpretations differ:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p197704
Ñāṇa wrote: As for hearing, this is only mentioned as such in the Kathāvatthu, and pertains to the placement of attention, not the non-fucntioning of the ear faculty. There are suttas and commentaries which suggest limiting the latter to the formless attainments.]


http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... he-jhanas/
For many, this is a big issue. Some take the position to say, that it cannot be a jhana if the meditator experiences “any” (other) sense impression, than the meditation topic.

Others say, wait a moment, i can clearly experience the 4 jhanas and even distinguish the individual factors which make up each jhana. But i do hear sounds and experience thoughts, albeit in a “background” not bothering my concentration at all.

Between those two “views” sometimes debates take place, where for the most part, group number one cites the Visuddhimagga whereas group number two has such prominent teachers like Ayya Khema and many many students as witnesses of their experience.

Now lets try to solve this mystery.
...

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:40 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Ignobleone,

Thanks for gathering those together. Those passages still depend somewhat on the interpretation. And interpretations differ:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=13220#p197704
Ñāṇa wrote: As for hearing, this is only mentioned as such in the Kathāvatthu, and pertains to the placement of attention, not the non-fucntioning of the ear faculty. There are suttas and commentaries which suggest limiting the latter to the formless attainments.]


http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/03 ... he-jhanas/

Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.
This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:12 am

Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote:Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.

I'm not sure what ending you are after.

Personally, I have no problem with different people interpreting those suttas a little differently. I don't think the Dhamma is so fragile that it depends on one very specific interpretation to be effective. In my view we have to investigate it ourselves, based on advice from teachers who seem to be trustworthy according to the Buddha's measuring sticks...
ignobleone wrote:This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.

Not for 20 years or so. Some basic Christianity was a child. A little transcendental meditation when I was a student.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:44 am

^

We can't hear anything at upacāra of first jhāna, and go on.

1) Pañcadvārāvajjana is very sensitive with bhavaṅga, because bhavaṅga can be Pañcadvārāvajjana's ārammaṇa-anantara-nissaya-ūpanissaya-purejāta-natthi-viggatapaccayas--let-able Pañcadvārāvajjana arise after it without separate, so Pañcadvārāvajjana can arise in khanikasamādhi.

But pañcadvārāvajjana can't arise after jhānacitta without seperate, many types of citta must arise after jhānacitta and before it because jhānacitta can be only upanissaya-natthi-viggatapaccaya. It's so far from 5 kāmagunas.

Upacāra of anyjhāna still sensitive more than appanājhāna. It must drop to bhavaṅga every 7 arisings, so it identify about lower power of it that can't win bhavaṅga. However it narrowly win akusala, and its concentrating nimitta more power than khanika, so 5 kāmagunas can't access upacārasamādhi while it go on, too.

2) 5 vatthus are kammajarūpa and indriyapaccaya, so observing them from kamma's vipāka are harder than hatayavatthu of jhānacitta that's only kammajarūpa but it isn't intriyapaccaya.

3) Citta can arise only one per time. So if jhāna is "strong exertion to direct one's mind to do something" or "ekaggatā", it couldn't sense anything by 5 senses because they are out of onemind and out of one thing.

This commentary passage is refer to senseless by 5 senses, except 6th sense, of samatha-developer.

[qoute]
Somanassañhi catutthajjhānassa upacārakkhaṇeyeva pahīyati, dukkhadomanassasukhāni paṭhamadutiyatatiyajjhānānaṃ upacārakkhaṇesu.
[/qoute]

Translated:

Mind-sukkha begins to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 4th jhāna. Physical-dukkha, mind-dukkha, and physical-sukkha begin to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd jhāna.

Just a conclusion, see at link for more information:
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0515a.att2.xml#M0.012

---------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Sleeper, and dis-attended body don't hear the sound, too. So hearing isn't importance to decide jhāna. Tipitaka and ommentary emphasize to know about mind elements more than it. Sound hearing just be suppāya that we should prepare to deny before meditate.

Attend lakkhaṇādicatukkas to understand mind state more to develop it.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:13 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote:Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.

I'm not sure what ending you are after.

I just wonder when you'll stop supplying me with links :)
I have shown you (which I believe) the most credible references. You don't accept it nor come up with your own counter argument, instead you keep showing me some links. I don't understand what you want. Or is this how you learn the Dhamma, by reading and comparing others' view? Then we have a very different way of learning the Teaching. I hope you can eventually find the most acceptable view.

Personally, I have no problem with different people interpreting those suttas a little differently. I don't think the Dhamma is so fragile that it depends on one very specific interpretation to be effective. In my view we have to investigate it ourselves, based on advice from teachers who seem to be trustworthy according to the Buddha's measuring sticks...

Some people in this forum, including you, keep saying that people interpret differently, without any clue which interpretation is right. No one solves the problem. It's not about to be effective, but to be correct, otherwise you will never arrive at the certainty of the Teaching. You need to notice different kinds of interpretation:
1. Interpretation = translation + additional judgment/opinion (possibly without evidence, could also contain misunderstanding)
Example: interpretation of the passage you provided earlier about Alara Kalama didn't hear sound, it's not clear why Buddhaghosa interpreted it as immaterial attainment.
2. Interpretation = merely translation + putting together supporting evidence
Example: feel free to give any example, this should be what we're looking for.

Regarding the latest links you gave me, someone mentioned Kathavatthu in one of the links. Kathavatthu is a part of Abhidhamma, and Abhidhamma is all commentary. Based on my experience with commentary, I repeat, I don't trust commentary. I think there's no point to argue with people who base their view on commentary, because at some point they will be demanded to provide sutta reference. If the sutta reference cannot be found, but the opposite reference can be found and clear, they will lose.
I dare to bet people who base their view only on commentary cannot answer either one or both of these questions:
1. Is there any relation between jhana and Nibbana?
2. If yes, how they relate?

ignobleone wrote:This will be a bit out of topic, but I need a small information before continuing.
Let me ask you something if you don't mind. You'll know why later. What is your background before you know Buddhism the very first time? I mean, whether you had any religion before you know Buddhism.

Not for 20 years or so. Some basic Christianity was a child. A little transcendental meditation when I was a student.

The reason I asked about your spiritual background is because there's a very crucial aspect/quality in learning the Teaching, that many people, mostly (not all) westerners (Americans, Europeans) or people who are born in the regions with dominant Theistic belief system, they don't even consider or aware of it. This quality is called saddha(confidence/conviction/trust/faith.) The Buddha always mentions it first when he talks about five qualities: conviction, persistence(viriya), mindfulness(sati), concentration(samadhi), discernment(panna/vipassana). Maybe you're ready with persistence, mindfulness, concentration and discernment. But how about conviction? Without solid conviction, whatever you do, no matter how hard you try, no matter how others try to help you, you won't understand the Teaching, let alone attain the Gnosis. That's what I wanted to say, just FYI.

Let me try to illustrate the importance of conviction for you.
Suppose you drink a type of tea regularly. One day you find a different type of tea you want to try. If you drink the new tea using an empty cup, you will know the distinct taste the new tea has to offer. But if you drink the new tea using a cup half-filled with your regular tea, most likely you won't know exactly what distinct taste the new tea has to offer. In the same way, make sure you don't learn Buddhism with other belief system still sticks in you. Other belief system will interfere, influence your judgement. And believe it or not, from karmic perspective, there will be considerable chance you won't be able to understand the Teaching (especially difficult topics) in this very lifetime (but don't worry, things can change.)

Btw, you mention Transcendental Meditation. That means you might have some exposure to Vedic teaching. Many westerners don't know the main difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Some even tend to think Hinduism is better than Buddhism since Hinduism came first.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:57 am

Hello again...
ignobleone wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote:Hmm.. it seems like it'll never end.

I'm not sure what ending you are after.

I just wonder when you'll stop supplying me with links :)
I have shown you (which I believe) the most credible references. You don't accept it nor come up with your own counter argument, instead you keep showing me some links.

Sorry, the links are not really necessary, are they? The counter argument is simply that the meaning of passages such as "the perception of sensuality has been stopped" are a matter of interpretation.

ignobleone wrote:Some people in this forum, including you, keep saying that people interpret differently, without any clue which interpretation is right. No one solves the problem. It's not about to be effective, but to be correct, otherwise you will never arrive at the certainty of the Teaching.

Of course. But I have no reason to believe the interpretation some particular person who posts on this forum. It's something I have to take responsibility for myself.

ignobleone wrote:Btw, you mention Transcendental Meditation. That means you might have some exposure to Vedic teaching. Many westerners don't know the main difference between Hinduism and Buddhism. Some even tend to think Hinduism is better than Buddhism since Hinduism came first.

Well this was a long time ago, so I really have no recollection of Vedic teachings.

ignobleone wrote:Let me try to illustrate the importance of conviction for you.

Thank you for your thoughts. Actually, I personally came to Buddhism mostly through conviction. I turned up at my local Thai Wat, observed the monks and lay people, liked it, and stuck around. I spent several months just doing chanting, giving dana, and so on before I even tried any meditation practice (we didn't have an English-speaking monk to teach at that particular time). So (apparently unlike some members) I did not come to Dhamma via some intellectual process. I see it as something to be experienced, not something to be proved by textual analysis.


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby manas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:59 am

Agmanellium wrote:"you'll just know" I expect to be the Answer. Personally I beleive access consciousness, since not mentioned by the Buddha, to be the weak beginnings of the first jhanna that later comentators felt the need to distinguish from full jhanna emersion.
How do you know when it's jhanna?


Hi Agmanellium,

fwiw, I agree with you. I once got this perception that if we have managed to banish the five hindrances from the mind, and we begin to feel peace / joy / non-worldly pleasure etc in the body-mind, that even if it lasts only for a short while, we might well have 'dipped' into first jhana, just that we did not remain for long. I got this idea that maybe jhana cultivation is like baking a cake. You practice and practice but the cake doesn't come up. Finally one day, you get it and you have a cake. But it is a bit mediocre; the taste is sweet but there are many imperfections, and so much more practice is needed, so you can refine it and get better and better at making the cake. Then one day, you are an expert cake-maker. I now see it more in that way. Maybe heaps of us have had brushes and encounters with the first jhana, but were too hung up by some of the things we have read to recognize it for what it was, we had too much expectation. I'm trying to let go of expectations nowadays because I think such preconceptions actually block us from experiencing it, should it materialize.

:anjali:
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:18 am

You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:

Much Maha Metta,
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:40 am

socoguy78 wrote:You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:

Can you provide any sutta reference which support one-pointed-concentration as being absorbed in single object meditation to the point where the person cannot hear sound in a jhana?
I have been researching this commonly accepted interpretation, which I suspect incorrect.
While it's true one may not hear sound while deeply absorbed, there's a problem with this. When one is absorbed, one cannot discern anything else other than the object of meditation. How can then one progress between jhana if he doesn't discern any other thing?
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:09 pm

ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:

Can you provide any sutta reference which support one-pointed-concentration as being absorbed in single object meditation to the point where the person cannot hear sound in a jhana?
I have been researching this commonly accepted interpretation, which I suspect incorrect.
While it's true one may not hear sound while deeply absorbed, there's a problem with this. When one is absorbed, one cannot discern anything else other than the object of meditation. How can then one progress between jhana if he doesn't discern any other thing?


Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all? By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation? I'm trying to grasp where you are coming from with what you wrote. Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.

Much metta!
Zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:01 pm

socoguy78 wrote:Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all?

This thread is questioning real jhana, but your question sounds you actually think you have a direct experience with it? It's just like Christians when they're being asked to prove their God, they'd answer like this: "because we cannot exist without God", which means they need to prove their own reason, which could be recursive.

By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation?

None of them. But I do read what others have to say, especially things that I never heard, then compare with what the suttas say.

Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.

Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:49 pm

ignobleone,
I was assuming you don't have direct experience with jhanas because you are saying you are researching. One way is to sit down and meditate to answer your question and do your research. Eventually using one pointed meditation/concentration meditation you will enter a jhana and you will have your answer for your research! Because you are directly experiencing a jhana, you will will answer your own question. That is why I assumed you don't have direct experience with concentration/one pointed meditation jhanas. You will know by seeing. So sit down and practice meditation.

ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:Dhamma Greetings ignobleone,
From what you are typing about I am assuming you do not have direct experience with any jhanas at all?

This thread is questioning real jhana, but your question sounds you actually think you have a direct experience with it? It's just like Christians when they're being asked to prove their God, they'd answer like this: "because we cannot exist without God", which means they need to prove their own reason, which could be recursive.

By research... Are you researching what other's have typed about? Or are you researching by practicing meditation?

None of them. But I do read what others have to say, especially things that I never heard, then compare with what the suttas say.

Well the best way to answer your research questions again is to sit and meditate.

Concentration meditation/one pointed meditation you are pushing away any type of distraction at all, a better word choice would be hindrence. You put your minds attention on what ever your meditation object is and when somthing is trying to take your attention off the object of meditation you concentrate more on your object of meditation. There is no relaxation with this type of meditation that is widely practiced today. With this type of meditation you do not let go of any mental defilements; you just push them away long enough for a pleasent sitting and after the sitting all the defilements in your mind come back at some point. I used to do this type of meditation maybe 8ish years and longer ago. I am not a scholar in buddhism, I am a practitioner. This is a good book to look at: Majjhima Nikaya, The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha), transalated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, and Bhikkhu Bodhi. The book is a wealth of information for your research. I am not going to research your answers but I will point you in the right direction. By chance I stumbled upon the original teachings and it has been a gem in helping suport my practice. I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts. Kind of a huge eye opener. The best thing is wisdoms eye does open as you see the 4 noble truths and dependent origination while practicing what the buddha "stumbled" upon and I'm using stumbled loosely. The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely. Without perception one does not percieve, one does not name, one does not cognize, one does not crave, nor cling... and it goes down the rest of the list of dependent origination.


Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.


Here are some Suttas you can read... MN 1, MN 21, MN 38, MN 59, MN 111, MN 118, MN 148. MN means Majjhima Nikaya. Hopefully these will help you. MN 148 is a very profound sutta. Read it very carefully.
Much maha Metta,
Zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 am

socoguy78 wrote:ignobleone,
I was assuming you don't have direct experience with jhanas because you are saying you are researching. One way is to sit down and meditate to answer your question and do your research. Eventually using one pointed meditation/concentration meditation you will enter a jhana and you will have your answer for your research! Because you are directly experiencing a jhana, you will will answer your own question. That is why I assumed you don't have direct experience with concentration/one pointed meditation jhanas. You will know by seeing. So sit down and practice meditation.

No matter how many times I try, I guess you will never understand. This will be my last try:
Let's say you're suppose to see someone, personX. Since you never met him before, you won't know a person is personX even if the person stands in front of you face to face. If you have a correct photograph of him, you will know. But if you have an incorrect photograph (i.e. someone's else,) you will only end up picking wrong person. It's all about the clear basis for the correct photograph. I'm not trying to say that the photograph I chose is the most correct. But the basis to decide which one is correct.
The problem with your advice (in bold) is, are you sure you are providing me with the correct photograph of personX ?
If you still don't understand, I give up.

socoguy78 wrote:
ignobleone wrote:
socoguy78 wrote:I now practice aware jhanas where you can hear sound in a jhana... you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities. And the Jhana is exactly how the buddha describes it in the original texts.

The only aware Jhana I know of that you can't percieve anything from your 6 sense doors is the relm of neither preception nor non perception. In this arupa jhana you stop perceiving completely.


Thanks for suggesting Majjhima Nikaya. More specific sutta will be helpful though. Are you sure you are in the right direction? If you're in the right direction, you should be able to provide me with sutta reference for each of the bold statements. Can you help me with that? Because what I've found is not so. It'll be helpful for my research if you can prove I'm wrong.


Here are some Suttas you can read... MN 1, MN 21, MN 38, MN 59, MN 111, MN 118, MN 148. MN means Majjhima Nikaya. Hopefully these will help you. MN 148 is a very profound sutta. Read it very carefully.

Apparently you only refer to Majjhima Nikaya. Anyway, let's finish it by making it simpler. Let's pick one point of your claims(in bold above) : "you can even carry a jhana from sitting meditation into daily activities" or any other if you wish, and please help copy the passages from any of those MNs which support your claim, because I couldn't find passages which suggest it so.
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:30 am

Majjhima Nikaya = Sariputta Thera School = Commentary.

It's like abhidhamma, patisambhidamagga, niddesa, jataka, and cariyapitaka.

Reference: Where somebody claim to call abhidhamma is commentary.

:anjali:
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:08 am

ignobleone,
If you want the right picture read MN 111 Anaruda(sp?) sutta, One by one as they occured... This is Sariputa(sp?)'s account of the Jhanas. It's a good road map. My advice is to find a teacher that has mastered the jhanas and he/she will tell you what jhana you are experiencing. Thats one job of the teacher besides guiding you and being a conduit of the Buddha's teaching. One word in that sutta I believe was translated wrong is concentration... I feel it should be collectedness. Your mind will just be collected, easily able to sit on your meditation object. I'm trying to think how to use it in an analogy so you will better understand collectedness but my head is tired because it's past my bedtime.

When I started practicing I had a lot of doubt and a lot of anylising, a lot of thinking about it. I think the doubt came from the anylising. But I seriously gave up all study and reading of material relating to buddhism to give me a fresh start because my mind was "tugged" down from all the previous readings and assumptions on what I knew. I did this for several years. I have come a long way in the years practicing and understand much more now and understand much more in the Suttas. One thing that helped me was practicing mindfulness all the time. When I was doing things and I noticed my mind came off my meditation oject of Metta, I reconised that I was no longer on my mediation object and thinking about what ever else... then I stopped and let the distracting thoughts/emotions/what ever it was go, just let it go in mid sentence, or mid thought. I stopped giving it any attention. I stopped fueling the fire (nibanna, hence means no fire), I stopped the craving to want to think about what ever or feel what ever emotional state I started getting into thinking about. I would relax any stress and tension I noticed that arose when my mind got distracted, I made sure I was smiling and in a good mood and I returned back to the meditation object while doing what ever I was doing having a nice clear calmed mind with space to think if something happened instead of reacting to somthing happening.

Your question about providing a sutta for my claim of carring a jhana into normal daily activities... I came to this fruition years ago when I realised that when I was in sitting meditation and I got up to do walking meditation that I carried the same mental state with me and from there I tried it with washing dishes, using the bathroom and so forth. One thing I like that the Buddha said was "Meditation is life and life is meditation". That quote never really struck me until I really knew what it ment. I can ask around about Suttas referencing your question about jhana and daily activities.

I have a question for you ignobleone... Do you do a lot of anylising? Do you do a lot of thinking? Do you ever just watch and see what happens with the curiosity of a childs mind? Remember we were all children once and we all had that type of mind so just remember for me, ok?

I can't stress this enough but when we sit in meditation we are watching the mind... We are seeing what is happening and as we sit in meditation we will naturaly go deeper and see more and as we do we have more fruition and eventually we will see with wisdom's eye. We are watching to see where suffering is coming from... We are seeing the 4 noble truths in meditation and we are seeing dependent origination a 12 link cognition chain of events that take place super fast, deep in meditation. This is why I just say go and practice meditation. You wont know until you see it for your self. If you are blind and I tell you all about the color blue... you will never really know what I mean because you have never directly experienced the color blue. Just like with meditation, we can read all about it and type all about it, debate all we want about meditation but we will never really know until we sit and practice meditation. When we do our questions will start to be answered. The Suttas are like a road map to help us get to a new destination. But we have to drive to the new destinations to get our answers, we will never really have our answers by reading the road maps. Just used road maps as an analogy to the Suttas. Sure the Suttas help us, they are like a raft that we use to cross the river to the other side and when we arrive we will have no use for the raft anymore.

Well it's bed time. Night night and Metta!
zach
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby pegembara » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:44 am

This sutta is also a pointer to the experience of jhana.

"But when a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, which things cease first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is attaining the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, verbal fabrications cease first, then bodily fabrications, then mental fabrications."[1]

"Now, lady, how does emergence from the cessation of perception & feeling come about?"

"The thought does not occur to a monk as he is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling that 'I am about to emerge from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I am emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling' or that 'I have emerged from the cessation of perception & feeling.' Instead, the way his mind has previously been developed leads him to that state."

"But when a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, which things arise first: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, or mental fabrications?"

"When a monk is emerging from the cessation of perception & feeling, friend Visakha, mental fabrications arise first, then bodily fabrications, then verbal fabrications."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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