Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote:
whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote:I think because then people would have thought the Buddha was a nihilist and the Buddha saw no good coming from that, so he chose to be silent on the matter and let his disciples, through the practice, see that this idea of the "self" was illusive. Think about it...if the Buddha claimed "no self" even today people would be saying Buddhism is so nihilistic, which it's not. Even with the Buddha never making that claim, some people still think Buddhism is depressing, nihilistic.

At the end of the day, the Dhamma itself is just a tool for seeing the Truth...don't get too caught up in what it says. Just let it help you flow in the direction its pointing.
So, because there is nothing that non-changing, there is no Nirvana?
It seems like Nirvana is beyond concepts of change and non-change...the fact that you're even suggesting Nirvana is contingent on there being some non-changing entity to be found in the world seems to me to suggest you're trying to conceptualize Nirvana, which I think is the wrong approach altogether.

I personally don't like any discussions of this nature, because I think you just trip yourself up when you try to conceptually understand what Nibbana is. It's something to be seen and realized, but until that happens it's best not to try and image what it is in your head.
Well, you called yourself a sotapanna, you are a stream winner, you saw the path to the ultimate goal, at least you must see nirvana even you are not there yet.

OK, come back to your explanation, why the Buddha never claimed "no self". Since when the Buddha cared much about the masses when it related to the truth? He called them fools, blinding, he explained everything maybe except nirvana. He repeated many times about anatta, if anatta equals to no self, why not just saying there is no self, isn't it more straight and easier to understand? And even when between only monks, he never claimed "no self", non of the noble ones ever claimed "no self", why there is difference between them and you, while you are a noble one like them? Also please note that his noble disciples didn't care much about people's opinion as the Buddha, even some arahants made bad reputation for the sangha, e.g live with woman in a room for a night, and then even none of them claimed "no self"? Why? Please explain these things to me

IMO, if there is no self, then the death will be the end of everything, it is simple as that.

Regards
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whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

LonesomeYogurt wrote:Nibbana is not a place, it is an event. You can't think of Nibbana as a location either inside or outside Samsara.
I know i am just conceptualizing and it's probably nothing compared to the real thing but to my understanding,forgive me if i am wrong, EVERYTHING INSIDE SAMSARA is ever changing. "Nibbanna is NOT Samsara". That's about all i can say.I mean i don't know much about Nibbanna but i am pretty sure it's not Samsara.Therefore,Not subject to (Impermanence,Unsatisfactoriness,No-Self) Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta.Making it a permanent state.It's probably a whole lot more complicated than this simple explanation but this should give an outline.
Dear LonesomeYogurt and Yana,

I agree that Nirvana is not a place, and it is more complicated than using words, coz it is outside of concepts. I was just trying to say some basics properties of Nirvana, i.e Nirvana is real, it is not illusion, that is all. I didn't try to go deeper than that.

Also LonesomeYogurt, I don't agree that nirvana is an event. Nirvana is outside of time and samsara concepts.

Regards
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Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote:
whynotme wrote:Well, you called yourself a sotapanna, you are a stream winner, you saw the path to the ultimate goal, at least you must see nirvana even you are not there yet.

OK, come back to your explanation, why the Buddha never claimed "no self". Since when the Buddha cared much about the masses when it related to the truth? He called them fools, blinding, he explained everything maybe except nirvana. He repeated many times about anatta, if anatta equals to no self, why not just saying there is no self, isn't it more straight and easier to understand? And even when between only monks, he never claimed "no self", non of the noble ones ever claimed "no self", why there is difference between them and you, while you are a noble one like them? Also please note that his noble disciples didn't care much about people's opinion as the Buddha, even some arahants made bad reputation for the sangha, e.g live with woman in a room for a night, and then even none of them claimed "no self"? Why? Please explain these things to me

IMO, if there is no self, then the death will be the end of everything, it is simple as that.

Regards
I never claimed I was a sotapanna...I just suggest it was possible given the definition which requires doubt to be eliminated, but there's so many variations on the definition of a stream-winner it's hard to tell and I'm in no positione to really make any such definitive claims.

Don't you see that "self" and "not self" is just a view? Even the view of "not self" requires one to conceptualize the "self" and say it doesn't exists. Didn't the Buddha say we must ultimately let go of all views? If the Buddha claimed either "self" or "not self" he'd just be adding to the fuel...giving you more views to cling to. The Dhamma is ultimately about letting go of these sort of concepts we have. Does that make sense to you?
Reductor
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Reductor »

Digity wrote: Examining for holes doesn't exclude the possibility of a fundamental shift in one's cognitive process. For instance, when I examined other teachings, like Christianity, I found tons of holes and reality told me those holes were real. In that way, I decided those weren't teachings worth following. In the same way, I looked for holes in the Dhamma. This required me to examine reality much closer and in the ways that the Dhamma described. In doing that, I didn't see holes in the teachings...what I would see in reality was reflected in the Dhamma. As this happens, ones cognitive process shifts and soon enough you see the Dhamma in everything...in all your daily activities.
I have no doubt that people attain lofty stages on the path even today, so I'm not looking to dismiss this stuff. As such I agree that examining for holes doesn't exclude the possibility of a fundamental shift. I just suggest that a fundamental shift is more important than not seeing holes.

If such a shift has occurred for you or anyone else, then kudos to you and to them.
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote: I never claimed I was a sotapanna...I just suggest it was possible given the definition which requires doubt to be eliminated, but there's so many variations on the definition of a stream-winner it's hard to tell and I'm in no positione to really make any such definitive claims.

Don't you see that "self" and "not self" is just a view? Even the view of "not self" requires one to conceptualize the "self" and say it doesn't exists. Didn't the Buddha say we must ultimately let go of all views? If the Buddha claimed either "self" or "not self" he'd just be adding to the fuel...giving you more views to cling to. The Dhamma is ultimately about letting go of these sort of concepts we have. Does that make sense to you?
IMO, there is no self is actually a wrong view, a terrible one. You said let go of all views but from what you said, you cling to the wrong view, you should let go of that view, there is no self. None of the evidence suggests that there is no self. None of the suttas said that, none of the arahants said that. So don't think that there is no self, it is a wrong view.

Also, letting go of all views is for arahants. Do you remember the raft simile? When you reach the other side of the river, you can discard the raft, but if you are still on this side of the river and you discard the raft, you can never reach the other side of the river. If you are arahant, you can let go all views, but if you are not arahant, you should need to know what is right, what is wrong, and and you need right view.

Regards
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manas
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by manas »

Digity wrote:I took the following quote from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_bein ... cite_ref-4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The human rebirth is said to be extremely rare. The Majjhima Nikaya (129 Balapandita Sutta) compares it to a wooden cattle-yoke floating on the waves of the sea, tossed this way and that by the winds and currents. The likelihood of a blind turtle, rising from the depths of the ocean to the surface once in a hundred years, putting its head through the hole in the yoke is considered greater than that of a being in the animal realm, hungry ghost realm or hell realm achieving rebirth as a human. This is because, according to the sutta, in these realms there is no Dhamma (Sanskrit Dharma), no practicing what is right, no doing what is wholesome, and no performing of merit. However it is generally implied that if one is already living as a human they will continue to be reborn in the human world based on good works and so they will be one again and again as long as they are moral and good in the ways described in Buddhist rules regardless of whether or not they are Buddhist themselves. The idea is that one must be good and moral because falling below the human realm is dangerous as the odds of one becoming a human again with any great frequency is slim.
Is the implication correct? That a human being will continue to be reborn in the human world based on good work? I've heard both sides...this one and also that human rebirth is rare in all circumstances....even if one conducts himself well.

I have this sense of angst about my next life sometimes and wish deeply to be able to continue the practice of the Dharma...that's why, the idea of it almost being impossible to be reborn as a human is very discouraging.
Hi Digity,

you're not alone in that anxiety, I've seen it before both in myself, and in other Buddhist practitioners.

It's unhelpful to get overly anxious about something that is unknown to you at present. While you're being anxious, you are actually cultivating one of the hindrances. Seriously, I mean cultivating. Why increase your mind's tendency to worry? It's already hard enough to let go of worries, not just for you, but for myself also and for many of us.

Part of our practice is to cultivate a calm and clear mind. So fwiw, I would advise you to find the level of practice that is 'just right' for you - neither too strenuous, nor too slack - and try to be happy within that, happy in the knowledge that you are on the right Path, and that's the best situation you could hope for. As for what is going to happen after death, well when you find someone who has actually seen this (I mean someone alive right now!) then please let me know. :|

:namaste:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Aloka
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Aloka »

Digity wrote:Is the implication correct? That a human being will continue to be reborn in the human world based on good work? I've heard both sides...this one and also that human rebirth is rare in all circumstances....even if one conducts himself well.

I have this sense of angst about my next life sometimes and wish deeply to be able to continue the practice of the Dharma...that's why, the idea of it almost being impossible to be reborn as a human is very discouraging.
I think its good to be at ease with practising the Dhamma here and now in this present life - and to remember what the Buddha said was inappropriate :

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "

(MN2)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

We should create "The great stream winner debate" thread.
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote:We should create "The great stream winner debate" thread.
Dear Digity,

Maybe you feel that I am attacking your sotapanna achievement, but actually I am not. I only talked about the view: there is no self, which involved your sotapanna claim. The fact is that I talked very little about your claim as well

Well, if you think there is no self is true, you are right, I am wrong and you don't need to discuss with others then feel free to let me know, I will stop chit chatting with you

Regards
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Digity
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by Digity »

whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote:We should create "The great stream winner debate" thread.
Dear Digity,

Maybe you feel that I am attacking your sotapanna achievement, but actually I am not. I only talked about the view: there is no self, which involved your sotapanna claim. The fact is that I talked very little about your claim as well

Well, if you think there is no self is true, you are right, I am wrong and you don't need to discuss with others then feel free to let me know, I will stop chit chatting with you

Regards
No, I don't think I'm a sotapanna....but sometimes you read the description of a sotapanna and think to yourself that maybe it's possible. That's all I'm saying.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

Digity wrote: No, I don't think I'm a sotapanna....but sometimes you read the description of a sotapanna and think to yourself that maybe it's possible.
Yep.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
whynotme
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by whynotme »

Digity wrote:
whynotme wrote:
Digity wrote:We should create "The great stream winner debate" thread.
Dear Digity,

Maybe you feel that I am attacking your sotapanna achievement, but actually I am not. I only talked about the view: there is no self, which involved your sotapanna claim. The fact is that I talked very little about your claim as well

Well, if you think there is no self is true, you are right, I am wrong and you don't need to discuss with others then feel free to let me know, I will stop chit chatting with you

Regards
No, I don't think I'm a sotapanna....but sometimes you read the description of a sotapanna and think to yourself that maybe it's possible. That's all I'm saying.
OK, it is possible, but I don't think you are a sotapanna if you think there is no self. Well, I just want the best for you, if you think you are right, I am wrong, then feel free to point it out, it will help me to know my mistake

Regards
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santa100
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Re: Confused about likelihood of human rebirth

Post by santa100 »

Ven. Thanissaro wrote a great essay on the notion of anatta here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... self2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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