6 paramitas and 8 fold path

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6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Seth19930 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:36 am

Can these be practiced together? or do they contradict? And how far can they be practiced together (if they can be) until one of them rules out the other?
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:49 am

I would say, if the paramitas are fullfiled (like if one is already to addopt the way of the eightfold path fully, usually ordination) there is no more need for focusing on paramitas. I guess as long as one tries to establish the mundane eightfold path, there is still the need of perfecting the paramis (this could be also if one is formal ordinated).
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Seth19930 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:56 am

Thanks for the help! but now I have a new question related to the same topic... Do the paramitas prepare us for the right view?
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:11 am

I would say yes.

The whole paramita and 8 fould path comparison is maybe more an philosophical as one could find both in both (see also 10 paramis) but I guess they are easier to addopt.
I guess your questions has given lot of stuff for studies and philosophical argument amoung Buddhist scholars.
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Seth19930 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:13 am

thank you very much for the help! I really appreciate it!
:thanks:
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:25 pm

Hi Seth,

I think both are beneficial to each other- there is nothing in either which need to be left out or contradict. You will need to develop all these qualities all the way upto arahanthhood.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:12 pm

There is a nice story which I thinks is very usefull:

kamma and the pāramīs

In a prison cell lived four men. The first was ignorant and lazy, the second was ignorant and hard working, the third was skilful and lazy, and the fourth was skilful and hard working. Each had the possibility to work and earn a little money.

The lazy ignoramus had a thoroughly miserable existence; he did nothing at all during the day, was terribly bored and never obtained anything more than the bare minimum for his subsistence.

The hard-working ignoramus enjoyed a more comfortable life, because his work allowed him extra food and small treats such as a bottle of wine or magazines.

The skilful lazy person did not have a very pleasant existence. As he did not put any effort in his work, he did not earn the money needed to buy things that would have allowed him to enjoy a better quality of life. However, knowing how to think, he suffered less than the lazy ignoramus, because he knew how to manage his condition better. Thus, he succeeded more easily in being satisfied with little. However, his incorrigible laziness eventually prevented him from thinking properly.

The skilful worker was competent in his work. Knowing how to think properly, he knew how to manage his money wisely. He learnt to content himself with little to save most of the money he earned. He had nothing good to drink or eat, or pleasant readings to offer himself. Nevertheless, after a while, having endured the necessary time, he was able to pay off the bail to get out of prison.

To make the analogy of this story, we can say that:

The prison represents the continual dissatisfaction of existence (dukkha), with its "ups and downs", the cycle of rebirths (saṃsarā).

Ignorance represents ignorance.
Skill represents wisdom.
Laziness represents the lack of motivation to cultivate wholesome actions.
Work represents effort (the effort to develop and maintain what is beneficial, the effort to practice properly).
The money represents the consequence of positive actions, merit (kusala).
The release represents liberation (from any form of dissatisfaction).

Conclusion: To develop merit, it is necessary to perform positive actions, to make efforts of generosity, honesty and concentration.

Nevertheless, if this is done with ignorance, merit will be badly used and, so to speak, "wasted". Thus, it remains profitless. For this merit to be beneficial, it must be cultivated with wisdom, that is, positive actions should be performed with the intention to take care of and develop the dhamma (for one's own progress and that of others).

Comment: More than positive actions, the more profitable actions are simply abstinences from destructive or worthless actions.

This explains why it is essential to understand clearly the actions that we perform and know how we have to carry them out if we wish them to be really profitable.

The prison story also shows us that wisdom is useless without effort, which is indispensable for the development of wisdom. Thus, only the development of pāramīs does allow us to progress on the path to liberation, at whatever level one may be.

If someone benefits from all the elements which allow him (her) to make of his (her) existence a training in the dhamma (birth as human being, in a favourable environment, in a place and time when the teaching of a Buddha (sāsana) is accessible, understanding the value of such a training, urge to embark in it, lack of serious obstacles such as a poor health, etc.), this means that he (she) has already developed numerous pāramīs in the past. If, besides these conditions, someone devotes himself (herself) with ease to "meditation" (training into satipaṭṭhāna), it means that he (she) has developed even more pāramīs. If a person opts for the life of renunciation by joining, in a most natural way, the monastic community (saṃgha), it means that even more pāramīs have been developed. Finally, when our pāramīs reach complete maturity, we cannot but experience nibbāna, the cessation of all suffering.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Seth19930 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:23 pm

Thank you all for the help! I better understand!
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:28 pm

Seth19930 wrote:Can these be practiced together? or do they contradict? And how far can they be practiced together (if they can be) until one of them rules out the other?

Hi Seth,
There are ten parami in Theravada not six as found in Mahayana. and only five are the same.
Here shows a table with the differences http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81
but here is a rough guide (the underline indicate correspondence) with some textual basis hope it isn't too cluttered.

10 pāramī----------------6 pāramitā
dāna-------------------------------------gradual teaching
sīla---------------------------------------group of eightfold path (speech, action & livelihood)
nekkhamma-------------------------------------right intention
paññā------------------------------------Group of eightfold path (Right view & intention)
viriya------------------------------------fold of the eightfold path
khanti---------------------------related to sila and the foremost austerity in the Dhammapada
sacca-------------------------------------Truth or posibly related to the aspect of right speech & view
adhiṭṭhāna-------------------------------not explicitly mentioned in the teachings that I can think of except in the Digha Nikaya but
--------------------------------------------can be seen throughout.
mettā------------------------------------Brahma vihara and mindfulness practice
upekkhā---------------------------------Brahma Vihara and developed in Jhana
------------------------------prajñā------Jhana frequently mentioned & aspect of the eightfold path of right concentration.


The Parami was a later development (the six parami are thought to be earlier by some) but not something out of line with the Eight-fold Path and could be useful as a means of reflection on certain aspects of the path and training.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:28 am

Greetings,

Cittasanto wrote:The Parami was a later development (the six parami are thought to be earlier by some) but not something out of line with the Eight-fold Path and could be useful as a means of reflection on certain aspects of the path and training.

To me personally, that's the key point right there.

The Buddha taught the paramis individually, because individually they're consistent with the Noble Eightfold Path - but he himself did not collate them as paramis or set them out as an integrated path of training.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby daverupa » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:51 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Cittasanto wrote:The Parami was a later development (the six parami are thought to be earlier by some) but not something out of line with the Eight-fold Path and could be useful as a means of reflection on certain aspects of the path and training.

To me personally, that's the key point right there.

The Buddha taught the paramis individually, because individually they're consistent with the Noble Eightfold Path - but he himself did not collate them as paramis or set them out as an integrated path of training.

Metta,
Retro. :)


+1

(I consider the whole of Mahayana in this way... -83,999?)
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: 6 paramitas and 8 fold path

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:33 pm

A study guide from Ven Thanissaro focussed on practical applications:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... tions.html

For people in the modern world who are wrestling with the issue of how to practice the Dhamma in daily life, the perfections provide a useful framework for developing a fruitful attitude toward daily activities so that any activity or relationship undertaken wisely with the primary purpose of developing the perfections in a balanced way becomes part of the practice.


:anjali:
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