Children who remember their past lives as monks

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gavesako
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Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

This thread is specifically devoted to the cases of young children who show past life memories and behaviour which indicate that they used to be Buddhist monks before.


Children who speak of previous life
Erlendur Haraldsson and Godwin Samararatne (1999). Children who speak of memories of a previous life as a Buddhist monk: Three new cases. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 63(857), 268-291. (Full text).

https://notendur.hi.is/erlendur/english/svid.htm#7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

This little boy in north-east Thailand called "Nong Mark" seems to continue to behave like a monk, as he would have done in his previous life: shaving his head, wearing a yellow robe and playing with a bowl. He can give the traditional blessing in Pali quite fluently, and then chants "Itipiso", "Bahum" and "Mahakaruniko" with a few mistakes and some prompting, just like a normal monk would do. He can do most of the usual chanting which takes over half an hour. His grandmother always takes him to the temple, but he started chanting in Pali from the age of 1.5 years. He also started sprinkling "holy water" before he was able to walk and sit cross-legged in meditation quietly by himself, which is unusual for children of his age.

3-year-old boy in Isan chants in Pali
อายุ 3 ปี สัพพี พาหุ อิติปีโส ได้เก่งมากกกก
http://youtu.be/jGHDpgBc9Dk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Nong Mark - TV star (interview on Thai TV with some English translation in background)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot6q1Sms3EQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PON86YGs3k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (various poses as a monk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtQ9VhYpMYg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Buddhism is better than watching cartoon)

Photo of Nong Mark (he is not a novice, just likes to copy the monk's chanting when following his grandma who offers food to them often, and he likes wearing the yellow cloth)
น้องมาร์ค เด็กในคลิปเณร 3 ขวบ สวดมนต์ให้พรคล่อง
http://news.sanook.com/gallery/gallery/ ... 6413/#view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Compare:
Early Years of Ajahn Chah:
His childhood friends remember Luang Por's mildness. They say he never enforced his dominance with bullying or coercion; no one can recall him in a fight. He was a mediator in his companions' disputes and, from an early age, drawn by the yellow robe. He relates a childhood memory of playing the role of a monk. He would sit sternly on an old bamboo bed with pahkaoumah cloth draped over his left shoulder like a robe, and his friends would be the laity. The meal time is probably the only event in the monks' daily life that is interesting enough to lend itself to drama, and it was that which the children would enact. Luang Por would ring a bell, and his friends would bring a tray of fruit and cool water. After bowing three times they would offer it to him meekly. He in return would give them the five precepts of the Buddhist layperson and a blessing.
http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/newslett ... 65/1998/10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ชีวประวัติ หลวงพ่อชา สุภทฺโท:
http://portal.in.th/i-dhamma/pages/10137/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Last edited by gavesako on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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gavesako
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

This young boy in Sri Lanka called Dhammaruwan used to recite Suttas in Pali from the age of 2 in an ancient style and remembered his previous life as a monk:

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2008/08 ... h-century/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sobhana.net/audio/chants/dha ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... h_Chanting" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Bojjhanga Suttas chanted by small Sri Lankan boy

http://youtu.be/ghyc9WftU3w" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by DNS »

gavesako wrote:This thread is specifically devoted to the cases of young children who show past life memories and behaviour which indicate that they used to be Buddhist monks
Good idea. For the purposes of this collection in this thread, I'll repeat something I mentioned previously.

I was eating lunch with a Thai-American friend. He was a monk for several years and disrobed to become a lay man. A three year old next to us started babbling away in what appeared to be 'baby talk'. My friend said it was a famous Pali chant and the words were perfectly pronounced. At that time I did not know any Pali. The child was not Asian and had never been to a temple. We talked with the parents and the child had an American name, but preferred to be known as Zeyar (a Burmese name). :o
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Mr Man
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by Mr Man »

gavesako wrote:This little boy in north-east Thailand called "Nong Mark" seems to continue to behave like a monk, as he would have done in his previous life:
Hi Bhante, was he a monk in his previous life?
:anjali:
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by Khalil Bodhi »

BHante,

Thank you for this thread. I went through a period about a year ago where I would listen to Dhammaruwan's recording of the Dhammacakkha sutta because it was so hauntingly beautiful. I just can't imagine a child that young being able to recite a sutta that long unless he had learned it in a previous birth. Sadhu!

:anjali:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

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gavesako
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

Thanks for the story, David. Surely remarkable, and it makes me think that this might be the reason why most such cases are discovered in countries like Sri Lanka where they are easily identified, because the parents already have an acceptance of the idea of rebirth. In other places where the culture might be uncomfortable or unfamiliar with this concept, the parents might either ignore the strange behaviour of their child or dismiss it and discourage the child from talking about such "nonsense".

I think that the behaviour of "Nong Mark" in Thailand really indicates that he was a monk in his previous life, probably in that same part of north-east Thailand because all that he does perfectly fits the way an Isan monk would behave, such as sprinkling the "holy water", or spitting into the spittoon (reminds one of Ajahn Maha Boowa chewing betel nut), or his style of chanting in Pali.

In Thailand there is another boy called "Nong Bes" who has been called a Dhamma Genius (เด็กอัจฉริยะ ใฝ่ธรรม) but he is older, 9 years to be precise. He is invited to TV shows where he expounds Dhamma (especially that of Ajahn Buddhadasa) with the authority of an experienced speaker or a senior monk. The audience is left speechless at the wisdom of such a small child. (I guess it actually puts them to shame...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVesy4c2GLc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fox38V8Tle0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Mal
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by Mal »

gavesako wrote:This little boy in north-east Thailand called "Nong Mark" seems to continue to behave like a monk, as he would have done in his previous life: shaving his head, wearing a yellow robe and playing with a bowl. He can give the traditional blessing in Pali quite fluently, and then chants "Itipiso", "Bahum" and "Mahakaruniko" with a few mistakes and some prompting, just like a normal monk would do. He can do most of the usual chanting which takes over half an hour. His grandmother always takes him to the temple, but he started chanting in Pali from the age of 1.5 years. He also started sprinkling "holy water" before he was able to walk and sit cross-legged in meditation quietly by himself, which is unusual for children of his age.
These are impressive achievements for such a young child, but are they any more impressive than Mozart's musical achievements at a young age? Perhaps his parents noticed him trying to chant, and encouraged him to carry on doing so, and then trained him in some monkish activities, or got him to notice & interact with monks. So one doesn't even have to accuse the parents, or grandmother, of deceit - although that would be understandable giving the privileges that holy children get in these societies - just as musical children did very well in 18th century Vienna!

Are no Tibetan Buddhists reborn in Thailand? It would be really remarkable if the 1.5 year old had started chanting in fluent Tibetan...

There really has to be a much better proof standard for rebirth - the equivalent of a bubble chamber for the mind. Anyone can start proving the the existence of cosmic rays by building a bubble chamber and watching the patterns. To prove rebirth you need meditative processes that will unambiguously show rebirth (just about) every time you go through the process.

Have any advanced mediators on this forum experienced rebirth memories that they can't explain away as hallucinations or waking dreams? Or are you not allowed to talk about it?
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by santa100 »

Mal wrote:
These are impressive achievements for such a young child, but are they any more impressive than Mozart's musical achievements at a young age?
The Mozart example makes a pretty strong case for rebirth. Say if he didn't inherited any talents from a previous birth, and that he was simply a child born with exceptional memory and finger dexterity, then at most he'd only be able to flawlessly play back any piece of music that he was taught (go to YouTube and you'll see many kids able to do that nowadays). But no, he went a lot further than that. He composed magnificent grand concertos! Now that's some skill that can't even be taught to an adult, let alone a five year-old kid. Not only it'd require mastery in music theory knowledge, mastery of all different kinds of music instruments, but also mastery in synthesizing those knowledges, and the possesion to the highest degree of ingenuity and creativity. Without rebirth, the best and brightest five year-old kid in the world simply doesn't have enough time to acquire all of those skill sets in a year or two!
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by Mal »

santa100 wrote: The Mozart example makes a pretty strong case for rebirth... He composed magnificent grand concertos!...
Have you read a biography of Mozart? He didn't compose magnificent grand concertos as young child.
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by santa100 »

Joseph Haydn himself wrote that "posterity will not see such a talent again in 100 years". If your theory about child prodigy is ENTIRELY based on the training from their parents, then it's incomplete. There're certain skillsets one simply cannot "learn" from their parents or tutors. Where did Mozart's extreme brilliance and ingenuity come from? Can one obtain it through "training"? While it's yet to be proven scientifically that rebirth is behind this, but the Mozart case created a very strong case in supporting this concept..
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by daverupa »

Mal wrote:To prove rebirth you need meditative processes that will unambiguously show rebirth (just about) every time you go through the process.
DN 1 shows how this can go all kinds of wrong.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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gavesako
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

Such as in the case of Jesus: he remembered his Daddy was waiting for him in heaven and he just needed to go up there again...
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gavesako
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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by gavesako »

Ajahn Sudhiro - Memories of Mind and Brain

http://youtu.be/CDvOoh65vRc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cases of past-life recollections and modern neuroscience. The difference between mind and brain. The use of the Thai word "jai" for mind. Young children who can remember things from previous lives like the Buddha did (jataka).
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Children who remember their past lives as monks

Post by Philovitist »

Mozart may be less of an example of rebirth than of pure genius — one can explain his success as a result of fortunate genetic endowment instead of some metaphysical event. That would be a more parsimonious account of it. No, one will have to look to different examples in order to establish that rebirth occurs.

What I really wish to understand is the mechanism by which rebirth occurs, if it does at all. It completely contradicts all we know about human inheritance. Does it occur at the moment of conception, through some influence on the way recombination occurs? Or does some force directly influence the cognitive development of the infant?

I'll be more convinced of rebirth if it can be reconciled with modern behavioral genetics. Until then, these apparent examples of rebirth just create cognitive dissonance that I can't remove.
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