How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Kamran
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Kamran »

You might like the book "Saints and Psychopaths". An autobiographical account in looking for good meditation teachers.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19649507/Sain ... sychopaths" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Kim OHara
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Kim OHara »

ignobleone wrote: ...
You still don't get it. You and Mike are no different. If you read Canki sutta you'll find saddha is at the top among the most helpful quality. Without saddha and understanding it, Good luck!
ignobleone,
I think we do 'get it' but you don't, i.e. we understand exactly what we are saying but you have misunderstood or are not willing to accept it.
To try again, very simply: there are many correct, valuable styles of meditation (that's the 'what to teach') and innumerable correct, valuable ways to teach them (that's the 'how to teach').
That being so, the beginner's best way of assessing the teacher's qualities / qualifications is to patiently observe them (as the Canki Sutta says) and their students. If you do like what you observe, you will develop faith in them and be willing to follow their teaching with energy and commitment. If not, you won't - and you would be wasting your time if you started learning with them, anyway, (even if they actually were good teachers) because you wouldn't put your energy into the process.

:namaste:
Kim
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Goofaholix »

Kim O'Hara wrote: That said, "don't assume that a teacher that didn't do it for you is incompetent," is still sound advice in a subject as personal as meditation.
I think one's experience of a Buddhist teacher is more subjective than that of a plumber or a mechanic, a plumber or a mechanic's job needs to conform to standards, as does a teacher teaching a curriculum.

If we consider a Buddhist teacher as someone is primarily for delivering facts and information, as I think most people on this thread are doing, then it's equally true and one can assess them based on the accuracy of those facts.

However to me a Buddhist teacher is primarily about delivering guidance, inspiration, and practical techniques, and less about facts and information, so from that point of view the teacher that has inspired and guided you or me might leave someone else cold, who's right? who's wrong? It's subjective and I wouldn't want to judge.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
ignobleone
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by ignobleone »

Kim O'Hara wrote: ignobleone,
I think we do 'get it' but you don't, i.e. we understand exactly what we are saying but you have misunderstood or are not willing to accept it.
Hi Kim,
You both don't 'get it' since you both have misunderstood, not me. I haven't delivered my main message, yet you both think as if I have nothing more to say. I used the title of the thread for an entry point to the discussion of my main message. We'll get into this.
To try again, very simply: there are many correct, valuable styles of meditation (that's the 'what to teach') and innumerable correct, valuable ways to teach them (that's the 'how to teach').
I don't know which ones you say correct. Since you agree with mikenz66, I suspect you don't know why they are correct or wrong. You won't know since you don't have the basis for knowing which one is correct. And the basis is tightly related to saddha (you may wonder why.) That's the main message I wanted to say.
Every time I tried to address this issue, there were always be people trying to against it. If they were involved in the discussion, they tend to stay away. They think talking about "correctness" is a taboo. Even they may think I'm a hypocrite, thinking I'm the one who is right. The fact is, that's not the case. I have the explanation, they're just too ignorant to listen and consider. If they're proven wrong, they don't care at all as if they've heard nothing. It shows they don't have saddha. All they have is just ignorance, with negative thinking towards other. Their anjali (icon) is fake.
That being so, the beginner's best way of assessing the teacher's qualities / qualifications is to patiently observe them (as the Canki Sutta says) and their students.
Now you follow what mikenz66 has started, categorizing people as beginner. I never categorize people in this forum into beginner, intermediate, expert, etc. Since I started this thread, I suppose you (and mikenz) categorize me as beginner. I have no problem with that. I just wonder how do you categorize me. You don't even know my background. I do know mikenz's background (he told me in one thread), and also have seen his comments all over the place. I have gauge his level of understanding, yet I prefer to remain silence, because I don't categorize people.
If you do like what you observe, you will develop faith in them and be willing to follow their teaching with energy and commitment. If not, you won't - and you would be wasting your time if you started learning with them, anyway, (even if they actually were good teachers) because you wouldn't put your energy into the process.
You suggest other to read Canki Sutta but you yourself clearly don't understand what it says.
1) It's not about whether you like what you observe, but whether the observed teacher is free from delusion.
2) If you don't have the basis for knowing whether the teacher is delusional, how come you agree with what you observe.

If you still don't get it all, it's reasonable for me to suspect your saddha is insufficient. Btw I can guess your background from your namaste icon.
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retrofuturist
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ignobleone,

You've mentioned saddha a few times... aka faith/conviction - so what do you regard as the object of saddha?

A teacher? The Buddha? The Sangha? The Dhamma? All of the above?

... or faith/conviction in general?... or the experience of faith/conviction?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Kim OHara
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Kim OHara »

ignobleone wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote: ignobleone,
I think we do 'get it' but you don't, i.e. we understand exactly what we are saying but you have misunderstood or are not willing to accept it.
Hi Kim,
You both don't 'get it' since you both have misunderstood, not me. I haven't delivered my main message, yet you both think as if I have nothing more to say. I used the title of the thread for an entry point to the discussion of my main message. We'll get into this.
ignobleone,
You started the thread with a question. We answered it. That's the way we usually operate round here.
If you didn't want an answer, you were being deliberately misleading or playing games. That's not the way we usually operate round here.
If you know the truth - or just think you do - please put it in front of us as clearly and simply as you can.

:juggling:
Kim
ignobleone
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by ignobleone »

retrofuturist wrote: You've mentioned saddha a few times... aka faith/conviction - so what do you regard as the object of saddha?
A teacher? The Buddha? The Sangha? The Dhamma? All of the above?
Hi retrofuturist,
Buddhists always chant Vandana and Tisarana. This should answer your question.
... or faith/conviction in general?... or the experience of faith/conviction?
Conviction in general is clear by itself. But if you say: conviction in The Buddha, conviction in The Dhamma, conviction in The Sangha (you mention it in different sequence,) they are different.
Regarding "the experience of faith/conviction", I'm not sure what you mean. But there's one thing I can say. For me personally, conviction in The Sangha in a way helps my conviction in The Dhamma (but you may interpret it differently.)
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tiltbillings
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by tiltbillings »

Moderator note and warning: There will be no more of this sort of inappropriate speech in this thread:

Good luck with your ignorance!

Be polite with each other, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nibbuti
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by nibbuti »

What is your point, ignoble one?

A standard question will get a standard (general) answer. ;)

The only way to specifically assess a meditation teacher, as taught by the Buddha:
  • examine mind with mind
  • examine by eye and ear
  • defiled & undefiled (noble) states
  • results (seeing for oneself)
:ugeek:
ignobleone
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by ignobleone »

nibbuti wrote:What is your point, ignoble one?

A standard question will get a standard (general) answer. ;)

The only way to specifically assess a meditation teacher, as taught by the Buddha:
  • examine mind with mind
  • examine by eye and ear
  • defiled & undefiled (noble) states
  • results (seeing for oneself)
:ugeek:
The point is: "do you investigate what your teachers have told you?"
nibbuti
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by nibbuti »

ignobleone wrote:The point is: "do you investigate what your teachers have told you?"
I do investigate what the Buddha has told and resulting states (dhamma).

Investigation (vicaya) it is part of enlightenment factors (bojjhanga).

Do you?

:)
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Goofaholix »

ignobleone wrote:The point is: "do you investigate what your teachers have told you?"
I investigate body.
I investigate feeling.
I investigate mind.
I investigate dhammas.

Generally speaking this is the main thrust of what my teachers tell me to do.

To investigate whether I should be investigating what they tell me to investigate could invite infinite levels of regression, but sure it's a good to be able to reference these kinds of instructions back to scripture.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
ignobleone
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by ignobleone »

Goofaholix wrote:
ignobleone wrote:The point is: "do you investigate what your teachers have told you?"
I investigate body.
I investigate feeling.
I investigate mind.
I investigate dhammas.

Generally speaking this is the main thrust of what my teachers tell me to do.

To investigate whether I should be investigating what they tell me to investigate could invite infinite levels of regression, but sure it's a good to be able to reference these kinds of instructions back to scripture.
To give an example of investigation: suppose a jhana teacher says that jhana is indicated by blah-blah-blah, then you should find somewhere in the suttas that blah-blah-blah is explicitly mentioned as an indication of jhana.
Simple, there's no infinite levels of regression.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by Goofaholix »

ignobleone wrote:To give an example of investigation: suppose a jhana teacher says that jhana is indicated by blah-blah-blah, then you should find somewhere in the suttas that blah-blah-blah is explicitly mentioned as an indication of jhana.
Simple, there's no infinite levels of regression.
Or you could realise that experience is experience and jhana is a label for it, not to see to attach to labels or develop concepts around what the experience of those labels may be like.

As you probably know different teachers have different criteria for what they label jhana, this doesn't necessarily mean that some are right and some are wrong rather points to jhana being and evolving process rather than a single event.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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mikenz66
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Re: How to assess meditation teacher quality/worthiness?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote: To give an example of investigation: suppose a jhana teacher says that jhana is indicated by blah-blah-blah, then you should find somewhere in the suttas that blah-blah-blah is explicitly mentioned as an indication of jhana.
Simple, there's no infinite levels of regression.
I think that it is important to work out things for oneself, which means trying things, not just listening to words and reading texts.

Of course, if a teacher seems to be talking complete nonsense I'll just walk away, but if a teacher is legitimate I think that it is important to listen very carefully with an open mind.

If I'm working with a teacher, what I do is to follow his/her instructions during the retreat, or over a longer period, listen carefully what she/he says, discuss my progress, and so on.

Later, I'll make some comparisons with suttas and ancient and modern commentary, to put it into perspective. And generally it fits into the suttas, but sometimes not in the way that I expected. So I learned something new.

My experience is that when I have approach working with a teacher with the idea of challenging her/his instructions and interpretations from the start, I don't learn anything, and I just waste my time.



:anjali:
Mike
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