Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:16 pm


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:26 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:30 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:59 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 4:40 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:12 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:44 am

^

We can't hear anything at upacāra of first jhāna, and go on.

1) Pañcadvārāvajjana is very sensitive with bhavaṅga, because bhavaṅga can be Pañcadvārāvajjana's ārammaṇa-anantara-nissaya-ūpanissaya-purejāta-natthi-viggatapaccayas--let-able Pañcadvārāvajjana arise after it without separate, so Pañcadvārāvajjana can arise in khanikasamādhi.

But pañcadvārāvajjana can't arise after jhānacitta without seperate, many types of citta must arise after jhānacitta and before it because jhānacitta can be only upanissaya-natthi-viggatapaccaya. It's so far from 5 kāmagunas.

Upacāra of anyjhāna still sensitive more than appanājhāna. It must drop to bhavaṅga every 7 arisings, so it identify about lower power of it that can't win bhavaṅga. However it narrowly win akusala, and its concentrating nimitta more power than khanika, so 5 kāmagunas can't access upacārasamādhi while it go on, too.

2) 5 vatthus are kammajarūpa and indriyapaccaya, so observing them from kamma's vipāka are harder than hatayavatthu of jhānacitta that's only kammajarūpa but it isn't intriyapaccaya.

3) Citta can arise only one per time. So if jhāna is "strong exertion to direct one's mind to do something" or "ekaggatā", it couldn't sense anything by 5 senses because they are out of onemind and out of one thing.

This commentary passage is refer to senseless by 5 senses, except 6th sense, of samatha-developer.

[qoute]
Somanassañhi catutthajjhānassa upacārakkhaṇeyeva pahīyati, dukkhadomanassasukhāni paṭhamadutiyatatiyajjhānānaṃ upacārakkhaṇesu.
[/qoute]

Translated:

Mind-sukkha begins to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 4th jhāna. Physical-dukkha, mind-dukkha, and physical-sukkha begin to pause at upacāra-samādhi of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd jhāna.

Just a conclusion, see at link for more information:
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0515a.att2.xml#M0.012

---------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. Sleeper, and dis-attended body don't hear the sound, too. So hearing isn't importance to decide jhāna. Tipitaka and ommentary emphasize to know about mind elements more than it. Sound hearing just be suppāya that we should prepare to deny before meditate.

Attend lakkhaṇādicatukkas to understand mind state more to develop it.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:13 pm


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:57 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby manas » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:59 am

Last edited by manas on Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:18 am

You push your distractions/hindrances away for concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... of course your not going to hear sound in a jhana. What I don't get is why people practice this and say the Buddha taught it this way when he himself mastered every meditation technique in his time that was concentration meditation/one pointed meditation... He found something else how to yoke perfectly samantha(sp?) and vippisana(sp?) together... He remembered sitting under a tree when he was a child during a ploughing ceremony and meditated... he remembered that meditation and during the night of his enlightenment he practiced that meditation. He did not use concentration meditation/one pointed meditation that night. It's in the suttas. I used to practice this meditation and I no longer do... I went back to the original teachings of the Buddha and found a teacher that teaches directly from the suttas with no commentary involved. Now i practice the meditation taught by the buddha in the suttas! hehe, the last sentence rhymed. :clap:

Much Maha Metta,
Zach

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:40 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:09 pm


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:01 pm


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:49 pm


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby ignobleone » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:29 am


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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby theY » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:30 am

Majjhima Nikaya = Sariputta Thera School = Commentary.

It's like abhidhamma, patisambhidamagga, niddesa, jataka, and cariyapitaka.

Reference: Where somebody claim to call abhidhamma is commentary.

:anjali:
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.

socoguy78
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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby socoguy78 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:08 am

ignobleone,
If you want the right picture read MN 111 Anaruda(sp?) sutta, One by one as they occured... This is Sariputa(sp?)'s account of the Jhanas. It's a good road map. My advice is to find a teacher that has mastered the jhanas and he/she will tell you what jhana you are experiencing. Thats one job of the teacher besides guiding you and being a conduit of the Buddha's teaching. One word in that sutta I believe was translated wrong is concentration... I feel it should be collectedness. Your mind will just be collected, easily able to sit on your meditation object. I'm trying to think how to use it in an analogy so you will better understand collectedness but my head is tired because it's past my bedtime.

When I started practicing I had a lot of doubt and a lot of anylising, a lot of thinking about it. I think the doubt came from the anylising. But I seriously gave up all study and reading of material relating to buddhism to give me a fresh start because my mind was "tugged" down from all the previous readings and assumptions on what I knew. I did this for several years. I have come a long way in the years practicing and understand much more now and understand much more in the Suttas. One thing that helped me was practicing mindfulness all the time. When I was doing things and I noticed my mind came off my meditation oject of Metta, I reconised that I was no longer on my mediation object and thinking about what ever else... then I stopped and let the distracting thoughts/emotions/what ever it was go, just let it go in mid sentence, or mid thought. I stopped giving it any attention. I stopped fueling the fire (nibanna, hence means no fire), I stopped the craving to want to think about what ever or feel what ever emotional state I started getting into thinking about. I would relax any stress and tension I noticed that arose when my mind got distracted, I made sure I was smiling and in a good mood and I returned back to the meditation object while doing what ever I was doing having a nice clear calmed mind with space to think if something happened instead of reacting to somthing happening.

Your question about providing a sutta for my claim of carring a jhana into normal daily activities... I came to this fruition years ago when I realised that when I was in sitting meditation and I got up to do walking meditation that I carried the same mental state with me and from there I tried it with washing dishes, using the bathroom and so forth. One thing I like that the Buddha said was "Meditation is life and life is meditation". That quote never really struck me until I really knew what it ment. I can ask around about Suttas referencing your question about jhana and daily activities.

I have a question for you ignobleone... Do you do a lot of anylising? Do you do a lot of thinking? Do you ever just watch and see what happens with the curiosity of a childs mind? Remember we were all children once and we all had that type of mind so just remember for me, ok?

I can't stress this enough but when we sit in meditation we are watching the mind... We are seeing what is happening and as we sit in meditation we will naturaly go deeper and see more and as we do we have more fruition and eventually we will see with wisdom's eye. We are watching to see where suffering is coming from... We are seeing the 4 noble truths in meditation and we are seeing dependent origination a 12 link cognition chain of events that take place super fast, deep in meditation. This is why I just say go and practice meditation. You wont know until you see it for your self. If you are blind and I tell you all about the color blue... you will never really know what I mean because you have never directly experienced the color blue. Just like with meditation, we can read all about it and type all about it, debate all we want about meditation but we will never really know until we sit and practice meditation. When we do our questions will start to be answered. The Suttas are like a road map to help us get to a new destination. But we have to drive to the new destinations to get our answers, we will never really have our answers by reading the road maps. Just used road maps as an analogy to the Suttas. Sure the Suttas help us, they are like a raft that we use to cross the river to the other side and when we arrive we will have no use for the raft anymore.

Well it's bed time. Night night and Metta!
zach

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Re: Mother, how will I know when it's real jhana?

Postby pegembara » Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:44 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.


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