Ignorance

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
ignobleone
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Ignorance

Postby ignobleone » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:39 am

How do you deal with ignorance if even the authority is ignorant?

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ground
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Re: Ignorance

Postby ground » Fri Oct 19, 2012 12:55 am

Whatever arises, just don't touch. :sage:

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ignorance

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:11 am

ignobleone wrote:How do you deal with ignorance if even the authority is ignorant?


Could you clarify this a bit, and maybe give a concrete example of what you mean?

Do you mean how to deal with the ignorance of those who are supposed to be "authorities"? If I believe them to be ignorant, then to that extent I don't treat them as an "authority". I just assume that they don't have anything to offer me at that moment, perhaps because I don't understand them.

I have enough trouble with my own ignorance, never mind the supposed ignorance of others.

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Sumano
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Re: Ignorance

Postby Sumano » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:28 am

SN 35.80 wrote:"Lord, is there any one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?"

"Yes monk, there is one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."

"What is that one thing?"

"Ignorance, monk, is the one thing with whose abandoning in a monk ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I am on the path, however not yet advanced. Any opinions or insights I share are meant entirely for discussion purposes and in cases where people might find them beneficial in whatever way. Since I am not advanced on the Path, I cannot guarantee that what I say will always necessarily be 100% true or in line with the Dhamma. However, having had an extremely interesting life with a wide variety of different (many of them deep) experiences, I hope that anything I share will be of use, provide food for thought, and inspire interesting and beneficial discussions.

Mettā to all! :anjali:

ignobleone
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Re: Ignorance

Postby ignobleone » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
ignobleone wrote:How do you deal with ignorance if even the authority is ignorant?


Could you clarify this a bit, and maybe give a concrete example of what you mean?

Do you mean how to deal with the ignorance of those who are supposed to be "authorities"? If I believe them to be ignorant, then to that extent I don't treat them as an "authority". I just assume that they don't have anything to offer me at that moment, perhaps because I don't understand them.

I have enough trouble with my own ignorance, never mind the supposed ignorance of others.

If you don't treat them as an authority, you will get fined or jailed or etc. It's more to social issue than spiritual.

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ground
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Re: Ignorance

Postby ground » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:22 am

ignobleone wrote:If you don't treat them as an authority, you will get fined or jailed or etc.

No issue if there is sufficient conviction in dhamma and sangha. Only if worldly concerns prevail there is an issue. :sage:

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Cittasanto
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Re: Ignorance

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:03 am

ground wrote:
ignobleone wrote:If you don't treat them as an authority, you will get fined or jailed or etc.

No issue if there is sufficient conviction in dhamma and sangha. Only if worldly concerns prevail there is an issue. :sage:

sure, yet there are ways in which a community/society operate. These should be respected as failure to do so when it is not against the Dhamma leads to decline and ruin.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Sam Vara
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Re: Ignorance

Postby Sam Vara » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:10 pm

ignobleone wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
ignobleone wrote:How do you deal with ignorance if even the authority is ignorant?


Could you clarify this a bit, and maybe give a concrete example of what you mean?

Do you mean how to deal with the ignorance of those who are supposed to be "authorities"? If I believe them to be ignorant, then to that extent I don't treat them as an "authority". I just assume that they don't have anything to offer me at that moment, perhaps because I don't understand them.

I have enough trouble with my own ignorance, never mind the supposed ignorance of others.

If you don't treat them as an authority, you will get fined or jailed or etc. It's more to social issue than spiritual.


Ah, I see - this is about obeying the law?

I think Cittasanto's advice is good. Unless the law specifically forces one to break precepts, etc., then it makes a lot of sense to obey the law of the land. The same applies to commercial and institutional/organisational rules, and lots of benign social conventions. Failing to do as these prescribe can run you into a lot of trouble with other people and leads to conflict. Luckily, I live in a part of the world where I can "fit in" quite well and still practice the Dhamma.

ignobleone
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Re: Ignorance

Postby ignobleone » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:29 am

- Ignorance is contagious.
- Ignorance = blindness
- Even a Buddha cannot remove one's ignorance

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Ben
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Re: Ignorance

Postby Ben » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:48 am

If I am not mistaken this thread is metadiscussion, thinly disguised.
I think that is a reasonable interpretation but I am hoping that ignobleone can correct me if I am wrong.
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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ground
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Re: Ignorance

Postby ground » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:53 am

Cittasanto wrote:
ground wrote:
ignobleone wrote:If you don't treat them as an authority, you will get fined or jailed or etc.

No issue if there is sufficient conviction in dhamma and sangha. Only if worldly concerns prevail there is an issue. :sage:

sure, yet there are ways in which a community/society operate.

No issue. Ways are just ways.

Cittasanto wrote:These should be respected as failure to do so when it is not against the Dhamma leads to decline and ruin.

This is the view of the fearful "I"/self which may be helpful for some, yes.
Actually acting in harmony with conditions is just this: Acting in harmony with conditions. :sage:


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