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NO self - Dhamma Wheel

NO self

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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robertk
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NO self

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:18 am


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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:21 am

In fact the Buddha is the teacher of Anatta - no self.
This is the heart of Dhamma, it is the essence.
Vajira Sutta BhikkuniSamyutta
Vajira
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn05-010a.html
Then the bhikkhuni Vajira, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses: "Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view? This is a heap of sheer constructions: Here no being is found. Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word 'chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates are present, There's the convention 'a being.' It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases."

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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:27 am


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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:30 am


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Ben
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Re: NO self

Postby Ben » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:32 am

Thanks Robert, that is most useful.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: NO self

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:07 am

This reminds me of an old talk some guy gave at a Humanist meeting a while ago in my town:


The concept of a triangle refers to a thing that exists.

The concept of a six-hundred-foot diamond triangle floating above the Pentagon refers to a thing that does not exist.

The concept of a five-sided triangular square does not refer to a thing that does exist.

The concept of a five-sided triangular square does not refer to a thing that does not exist.

To say, "There is no five-sided triangular square" is to state that such a concept refers to a thing (albeit a non-existent thing) when in fact "five-sided triangular square" does not refer to a thing that either exists or does not exist.


This logical format is often used by ignostics to explain why they do not identify as agnostics/atheists; they argue that the concept of God is meaningless both linguistically and conceptually, and that even denying that God exists posits a link between language and form that doesn't actually exist.

The same argument works remarkably well when it comes to the self - to say "the concept of a self refers to something that exists" is wrong but it is also technically inaccurate to say "the concept of a self refers to something that does not exist" because the Buddha made it clear that the self wasn't even a meaningful or otherwise cognitively functional concept due to anatta, anicca, and dukkha. So that's why we have a doctrine of non-self; it negates the entire concept of the self entirely, instead of saying "this is what the self is/would be, do we or do we not have it?"

At least that's my take on it.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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polarbear101
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Re: NO self

Postby polarbear101 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:13 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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cooran
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Re: NO self

Postby cooran » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:08 am

Hello polarbuddha101,

A note to Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation of this sutta is worth considering:

‘’We should carefully heed the two reasons that the Buddha does not declare, ‘’There is no self’’: not because he recognizes a transcendent self of some kind (as some interpreters allege), or because he is concerned only with delineating ‘’a strategy of perception’’ devoid of ontological implications (as others hold), but (i) because such a mode of expression was used by the annihilationists, and the Buddha wanted to avoid aligning his teaching with theirs; and (ii) because he wished to avoid causing confusion in those already attached to the idea of self. The Buddha declares that ‘all phenomena are nonself’’ (sabbe dhamma anatta), which means that if one seeks a self anywhere one will not find one. Since ‘’all phenomena’’ includes both the conditioned and the unconditioned, this precludes an utterly transcendent, ineffable self.
Part of Note 385 on Page 1457 of The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi).

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Dan74
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Re: NO self

Postby Dan74 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:37 am

In all these discussions I am left wondering what is this self that we affirm or deny?
_/|\_

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Kim OHara
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Re: NO self

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:15 pm


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Alex123
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Re: NO self

Postby Alex123 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:58 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:20 am


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: NO self

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:24 am

• • • • (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

whynotme
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Re: NO self

Postby whynotme » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:28 am

Please stop following me

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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:44 am


whynotme
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Re: NO self

Postby whynotme » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:51 am

I am not good at Pali.

I only using common sense, normal logic and reason to point out that if there is unconditioned thing, what ever it is, then it is outside of all phenomena, outside of the reach of consciousness, because another member has said that all phenomena include the unconditioned. All phenomena have beginning and ending, which contradict to the unconditioned if there is any. Unconditioned means no beginning, not created, because has the beginning or be created already means conditioned.

Correct me if I was wrong

Regards
Please stop following me

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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:57 am


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mikenz66
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Re: NO self

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:04 am


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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:37 pm

Some more on "there is no self" .
It must be admitted hat someone could say " there is no self", and be having some sort of anilhilationist view such as the philosopher Hume, some scientists and materialism in general.

Thus more detail is needed to clarify, more about the vinnana sota, nama-rupa , conditionality, and dependent origination.

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Alex123
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Re: NO self

Postby Alex123 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:51 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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