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Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
helparcfun
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby helparcfun » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:14 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


helparcfun
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby helparcfun » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:19 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:56 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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gavesako
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby gavesako » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:33 pm

Something on this topic:
Extended interview with Rupert Sheldrake, a Cambridge scientist, including new ideas about out-of-the-body experiences and other well-reasoned ideas. He talks about the limitations of current science which adopts the materialist dogma and limiting consciousness to the brain. There is no funding for so-called para-normal research because this is decided by small committees and reflecting their views. The evidence for psychic phenomena is systematically dismissed because it does not fit in. Science is far from 'objective' but influenced by people's prejudices. Materialist dogmas are a kind of superstition as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frJpThIims8
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

Mawkish1983
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:11 pm


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gavesako
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby gavesako » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:18 pm

This is a quote from Sheldrake in the interview. Very interesting talk about the limitations of the materialistic view of science which holds that consciousness is inside the brain. Instead, consciousness can be seen as field phenomena which stretch out beyond the brain. The dream body and being able to influence external reality in lucid dreams. Transfer of memories from past lives to another body might be due to morphic fields which shape our body after birth and might also explain birthmarks in some children.

'We know that our dreams are very influenced by our preoccupations, by our fears, our desires, we can have nightmares which are usually about being trapped or being chased by some destructive force like a monster. All these things may happen after we are dead, and it might be like being in a dream from which you cannot wake up. It is much better to start from our experience rather than from brain physiology when we are investigating the afterlife.'
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

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daverupa
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:12 pm


whynotme
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby whynotme » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:33 am

Please stop following me

whynotme
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby whynotme » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:56 am

Please stop following me

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gavesako
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby gavesako » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:09 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

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Alex123
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:06 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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gavesako
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby gavesako » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:58 pm

Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

- Theravada texts
- Translations and history of Pali texts
- Sutta translations

Mawkish1983
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Location: Essex, UK

Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:49 am

That wall of text doesn't explain to me why I should consider experience as 'evidence' or 'proof' of anything, as per the OP; especially if that experience belongs to someone else.

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Kim OHara
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:31 am


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daverupa
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:13 pm

Related:


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imagemarie
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby imagemarie » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:27 pm

I have been reading Gerald M. Edelman's "A Universe of Consciousness - how matter becomes imagination". And it also seems pertinent to the thread.
I hope this contribution of another "wall of text" is not considered too obstructive ..

Consciousness As A Physical Process

We have argued throughout this book that consciousness arises from certain arrangements in the material order of the brain. There is a common prejudice that to call something material is somehow to refuse it's entry into the realm of exalted things - mind,spirit,pure thought. The word material can be used to refer to many things or states. As it is used in these pages, it applies to what we commonly call the real world of sensible or measurable things, the world that scientists study. That world is considerably more subtle than it first appears. A chair is material (shaped by us, of course), a star is material, atoms and fundamantal particles are material - they are made of matter-energy. The thought "thinking about Vienna", however, while couched in material terms, is a materially based process but is, itself, not material.
What is the difference?
It is that conscious thought is a set of relations with a meaning that goes beyond just energy or matter (although it involves both). And what of the mind that gave rise to the thought? The answer is, it is both material and meaningful. There is a material basis for the mind as a set of relations:The action of your brain and all it's mechanisms, bottom to top, atoms to behaviour, results in a mind that can be concerned with the processes of meaning. While generating such immaterial relationships that are recognised by it and other minds, this mind is completely based in and dependent on the physical processes that occur in it's own workings, in those of other minds, and in the events involved in communication. There are no completely separate domains of matter and mind and no grounds for dualism. But obviously, there is a realm created by the physical order of the brain, the body, and the social world in which meaning is consciously made. That meaning is essential both to our description of the world and to our scientific understanding of it. It is the amazingly complex material structures of the nervous system and the body that give rise to dynamic mental processes and to meaning. Nothing else need be assumed..

:anjali:

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby ancientbuddhism » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:01 pm

I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)


Mawkish1983
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:03 pm


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Kim OHara
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Re: Neurosurgeon's visit to heaven - proof of afterlife?

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:47 am

Hi, Mawkish,
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your position. I wasn't quite sure (which is why I said 'seems to be') but it did seem like a reasonable one-word description of where you were coming from.
Anyway, your prime objection was, "against using subjective experience as evidence," and that was the problem which was stated in a slightly different form in the chunk of text I quoted to you.
If we take the view that subjective experience can never be satisfactory evidence, we can say nothing about the world we experience. But subjective experience is all we've got - all information about the world and about our minds is subjective experience - so that position obviously doesn't work, and we hardly ever act as though it does.
Science, however, insists that that position is not only valid but necessary. It rejects subjective experience in favour of something it believes is objective evidence, although that 'objective' evidence still comes to each person through the same sense doors.
Does [subjective x 10] = [objective]?
Although it doesn't say so, that's the way science like to work. And one cost is that the subjective experience of any one person is unexaminable by science.

It is a real problem and one I don't have a good solution to. Like you, I am reluctant to accept the objective reality of something that has been subjectively experienced by only one person. In practice:
• I accept science when it says something which is within its realm of competence but place less faith in it when it talks about things it doesn't know or can't examine.
• I usually accept subjective experience as evidence when it agrees with others ... which is what science does.
• I have a large mental bin labelled "unproven" and throw a lot of stuff into it. Within it, like sticks to like; and if enough bits stick together I haul them out and put them in the "may be true" bin.
:shrug:
It's the best I can do.

:namaste:
Kim


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