Transcendent Insight

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.

Transcendent Insight

Postby smokey » Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:49 pm

Lhag-thong (Tibetan, to see more) or transcendent insight is beyond conceptualised thoughts. It is still a thought at a subtle single pointed level engaged at the sametime in investigative manner.
One can gain knowledge and better understanding of the reality during such meditation. Well, one could gain extremely subtle pliancy of mind-body level that would have its own sensational impact but are supposed to be truly tranquil and balanced.
Lhag-thong is a high level practice and it cannot be achieved with meditation alone, however it is achieved in mediation. It requires years of study under a highly qualified teacher with much reading and practice to achieve such an insight.
Lhag-thong literally means to see "more", to see "beyond", "extraordinary", "highest", so, not to see just what a mass of mankind sees which live in ignorance, but to see beyond the limits which restrain a vision of developed minds, to see "with a third eye of Knowledge", which followers of tantric practices center on the forehead of their symbolic gods. Like any other skills, Lhag-thong can be nurtured and improved.
Based on Lhag-Thong one can contemplate Nirvāṇa, Parinirvāṇa, what is between existence and non-existence, Śūnyatā, Pratītyasamutpāda, law which congregates causes and effects, understanding Karma and Vipāka etc. Ultimately Lhag-thong is a practice for realising Śūnyatā which creates a true enlightenment.

I have a question. Well, on Tibetan transcendent insight is called Lhag-thong and Tibetan Buddhism is based upon two vehicles: Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna. So my question is: How is transcendent insight called in Theravāda tradition, on Pali? (note that Lhag-thong on Tibetan stands for both transcendent insight and Vipassana).
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:14 pm

How is transcendent insight called in Theravāda tradition


Vipasssana
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19304
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:58 pm

Greetings Smokey,

See...

Vipassana Nanas
http://www.triplegem.plus.com/vpsnana.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby smokey » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:23 pm

Thank you for answering my question. But I think that the answers are incorrect because Vipassana is just insight meditation, while transcendent insight is something higher than just plain insight. With Vipassana one can gain insight and realize The Three Marks of Existence, but with Vipassana one cannot realize Sunyata or emptiness and thus cannot become enlightened, only with transcendent insight can one realize emptiness.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:49 pm

smokey wrote:Thank you for answering my question. But I think that the answers are incorrect because Vipassana is just insight meditation, while transcendent insight is something higher than just plain insight. With Vipassana one can gain insight and realize The Three Marks of Existence, but with Vipassana one cannot realize Sunyata or emptiness and thus cannot become enlightened, only with transcendent insight can one realize emptiness.

Vipassana is often used as a label for a meditation technique, but strictly it is insight to the way things are, and that is what leads to enlightenment.

Of course, Mahayana traditions have different ideas of what enlightenment is, so comparison is fraught with difficulty.

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ssan%C4%81
Vipassanā: 'insight', is the intuitive light flashing forth and exposing the truth of the impermanency, the suffering and the impersonal and unsubstantial nature of all material and mental phenomena of existence. It is insight-understanding vipassanā-paññā that is the decisive liberating factor in Buddhism, though it has to be developed along with the 2 other trainings in morality and concentration. The culmination of insight practice see: visuddhi VI leads directly to the stages of Nobility see: visuddhi VII.

Insight is not the result of a mere intellectual understanding, but is won through direct meditative observation of one's own bodily and mental processes. In the commentaries and the Vis.M, the sequene in developing insight-meditation is given as follows: 1. discernment of the material rūpa. of the mental nāma. contemplation of both nāma-rūpa i.e. of their pairwise occurrence in actual events, and their interdependence, 4. both viewed as conditioned application of the dependent origination, paticcasamuppāda 5. application of the 3 characteristics impermanency, etc. to mind-and-body-cum-conditions.

The stages of gradually growing insight are described in the 9 insight-knowledges vipassanā-ñāna constituting the 6th stage of purification: beginning with the 'knowledge of rise and fall' and ending with the 'adaptation to Truth'. For details, see visuddhi VI and Vis.M XXI.

Eighteen chief kinds of insight-knowledge or principal insights, mahā-vipassanā are listed and described in Vis.M XXII, 113: 1: contemplation of impermanence aniccānupassanā 2: of suffering dukkhānupassanā 3: of no self anattānupnupassanā 4: of aversion nibbidānupassanā 5: of detachment virāgānupassanā 6: of ceasing nirodhānupassanā 7: of abandoning patinissaggānupassanā 8: of waning khayānupassanā 9: of vanishing vayānupassanā 10: of change viparināmānupassanā 11: of the unconditioned or signless, animittānupassanā 12: of desirelessness apanihitānupassanā 13: of emptiness suññatāupassanā 14: insight into phenomena which is higher understanding adhipaññā-dhamma-vipassanā 15: knowledge and vision according to reality yathā-bhūta-ñānadassana 16: experience of Danger or danger, ādīnavānupassanā 17: reflecting contemplation patisankhānupassanā 18: contemplation of turning away vivattanānupassanā.

Through these 18, the adverse ideas and views are overcome, for which reason this way of overcoming is called 'overcoming by the opposite' tadanga-pahāna overcoming this factor by that. Thus 1 dispels the idea of permanence. 2 the idea of happiness, 3 the idea of self, 4 lust, 5 greed, 6 origination, 7 grasping, 8 the idea of compactness, 9 kamma-accumulation, 10 the idea of lastingness, 11 the conditions, 12 delight, 13 adherence, 14 grasping and adherence to the idea of substance, 15 attachment and adherence, 17 thoughtlessness, 18 dispels entanglement and clinging.

Insight may be either mundane lokiya or supra-mundane lokuttara. supra-mundane insight is of 3 kinds: 1 joined with one of the 4 supra-mundane paths, 2 joined with one of the fruitions of these paths, 3 regarding the ceasing, or rather suspension, of consciousness see: nirodha-samāpatti.

See: samatha-vipassanā visuddhi III-VII.

Literature: Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw WHEEL 31/32. Practical Insight Meditation, Progress of Insight, both by Mahāsi Sayadaw BPS. The Experience of Insight, by Joseph Goldstein BPS.


Metta
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10229
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:20 am

smokey wrote:Thank you for answering my question. But I think that the answers are incorrect because Vipassana is just insight meditation, while transcendent insight is something higher than just plain insight. With Vipassana one can gain insight and realize The Three Marks of Existence, but with Vipassana one cannot realize Sunyata or emptiness and thus cannot become enlightened, only with transcendent insight can one realize emptiness.


Vipassana means insight, and in this case case I am not necessarily referring to the type of meditative practice that goes by the name vipassana.

while transcendent insight is something higher than just plain insight.


Says who?

With Vipassana one can gain insight and realize The Three Marks of Existence, but with Vipassana one cannot realize Sunyata or emptiness and thus cannot become enlightened, only with transcendent insight can one realize emptiness.


Again, says who? However Tibetan polemical stuff characterizes the supposed hinayana, it is not an accurate reflection of the teachings of the Theravada. Full insight, vipassana, into the three marks is awakening, full awakening into the fact that all dhammas are empty of any self-existent reality.
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19304
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:26 am

Greetings smokey,

smokey wrote:With Vipassana one can gain insight and realize The Three Marks of Existence, but with Vipassana one cannot realize Sunyata or emptiness and thus cannot become enlightened, only with transcendent insight can one realize emptiness.


Further to Tilt's comment, I'd ask what you consider in "emptiness" to actually go beyond the three marks of existence? What aspect of sunnata cannot also be known or expressed by way of anatta and anicca (and dukkha too, but moreso the other two)?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14650
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby vitellius » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:43 am

In fact Pali word "vipassana" was translated in Sanskrit as "vipasyana" which in line was translated into Tibetan as "lhag thong".

Some practices of developing/attaining vipassana and lhatong are similar and some differ.
vitellius
 
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:21 pm

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:38 am

I agree with the answers here. However I am interested in how one goes about doing Lag Thong. If anyone has any insight into the matter (ok pun intended) please let me know. I am always on the lookout for different insight/vipassana methods!
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby smokey » Thu Jun 25, 2009 11:28 am

Well, on Facebook I met a Rinpoche who said that he has achieved Lhag-Thong and he also said that it is not easy.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia

Re: Transcendent Insight

Postby smokey » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:14 pm

Thank you all for the answers.
User avatar
smokey
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:01 pm
Location: Budaševo, Croatia


Return to Theravada Meditation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: atipattoh, wolf1 and 3 guests