The cholesterol myth

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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:42 am


From your earlier source above: Causes of High Cholesterol: Diet and DNA are the main sources of cholesterol. Lucky DNA, except for the Alzheimer's.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:48 am

Dietary cholesterol content does not significantly influence plasma cholesterol values, which are regulated by different genetic and nutritional factors that influence cholesterol absorption or synthesis.
Source
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:55 am

danieLion wrote:
Dietary cholesterol content does not significantly influence plasma cholesterol values, which are regulated by different genetic and nutritional factors that influence cholesterol absorption or synthesis.
Source

The whole abstract, rather than just a bit:

    Dietary cholesterol comes exclusively from animal sources, thus it is naturally present in our diet and tissues. It is an important component of cell membranes and a precursor of bile acids, steroid hormones and vitamin D. Contrary to phytosterols (originated from plants), cholesterol is synthesised in the human body in order to maintain a stable pool when dietary intake is low. Given the necessity for cholesterol, very effective intestinal uptake mechanisms and enterohepatic bile acid and cholesterol reabsorption cycles exist; conversely, phytosterols are poorly absorbed and, indeed, rapidly excreted. Dietary cholesterol content does not significantly influence plasma cholesterol values, which are regulated by different genetic and nutritional factors that influence cholesterol absorption or synthesis. Some subjects are hyper-absorbers and others are hyper-responders, which implies new therapeutic issues. Epidemiological data do not support a link between dietary cholesterol and CVD. Recent biological data concerning the effect of dietary cholesterol on LDL receptor-related protein may explain the complexity of the effect of cholesterol on CVD risk.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:58 am

There are many factors that can increase your chance of having heart problems or stroke if you have high cholesterol, including the following:
An unhealthy diet: some foods already contain cholesterol (known as dietary cholesterol) but it is the amount of saturated fat in your diet which is more important.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:06 am

danieLion wrote:
There are many factors that can increase your chance of having heart problems or stroke if you have high cholesterol, including the following:
An unhealthy diet: some foods already contain cholesterol (known as dietary cholesterol) but it is the amount of saturated fat in your diet which is more important.
Source
Which is, of course, all true, as are the other sources you quoted. It is not black and white.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby marc108 » Sat Oct 27, 2012 6:42 pm

Dan you are mostly right. Very little dietary cholesterol is absorbed... how much depends on genetics and your bodies needs at the time, as well as what other foods are consumed at the same time... soluble fiber, etc. The largest dietary contributor to high blood cholesterol is saturated fat. Too much saturated fat decreased LDL receptor density in the liver, decreasing the livers ability to remove LDL cholesterol from the blood and keeping blood levels artificially elevated.

Saying blood cholesterol has no role in atherosclerosis is outright wrong... we can put atherosclerotic plaque under a microscope and see that it is composed of cholesterol and other things. LDL:HDL ratios are still the best predictor we have for CVD mortality as far as I know... its not 100% accurate, because there are SO many other factors involved... oxidation of lipoproteins, vascular inflammation, etc. What really matters is the class of lipoprotein that is elevated... LDL and HDL are a class of lipoprotein, not a single entity, with certain types being prone towards plaque formation and certain types not (thevaptest.com)


http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/may ... vap_01.htm
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:24 am

marc108 wrote:Dan you are mostly right.

Thanks. Mostly's good enough for me.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby Alex123 » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:11 am

Hello DanielLion, all.

You are right. Another interesting thing:

Despite the fact that most people are worried about having cholesterol levels that are too high, yet another study has found that low cholesterol is actually associated with adverse behavioral effects such as aggression and depression.

While the medical establishment continues to push the suppression of cholesterol levels to abnormally low levels, it is not widely known that there is a significant amount of evidence linking low cholesterol to aggressive behavior and depression.

According to researchers from Yale University School of Medicine, "The well-documented negative association between serum cholesterol and aggressive behavior has led Kaplan (Psychosom Med 1994 Nov-Dec;56:479-84) to propose a cholesterol-serotonin hypothesis of aggression.

According to this hypothesis, low dietary cholesterol intake leads to depressed central serotonergic activity, which itself has been reported in numerous studies of violent individuals."

•Researchers studied 25 violent psychiatric patients

•For 7 days, the patients wore signaling devices that emitted an average of seven signals a day.

•Following each signal, patients filled out a mood questionnaire.
The authors found that "Total serum cholesterol (TSC) concentration was positively associated with measures of affect, cognitive efficiency, activation, and sociability, suggesting a link between low TSC and dysphoria."

"These findings are consistent with the cholesterol-serotonin hypothesis and with the substantive literature linking both aggression and depression to depressed central serotonergic activity," they conclude.

Journal of Behavioral Medicine, December 1, 2000; 23: 519-529
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ssion.aspx


Also
Low cholesterol linked to violence

Low cholesterol may affect mood

Low cholesterol linked to depression
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby alan » Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:02 am

I'm in the rare position of agreeing with Alex123.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:20 pm

Alex123 wrote:Hello DanielLion, all.

You are right. Another interesting thing:

Despite the fact that most people are worried about having cholesterol levels that are too high, yet another study has found that low cholesterol is actually associated with adverse behavioral effects such as aggression and depression.

While the medical establishment continues to push the suppression of cholesterol levels to abnormally low levels, it is not widely known that there is a significant amount of evidence linking low cholesterol to aggressive behavior and depression.

According to researchers from Yale University School of Medicine, "The well-documented negative association between serum cholesterol and aggressive behavior has led Kaplan (Psychosom Med 1994 Nov-Dec;56:479-84) to propose a cholesterol-serotonin hypothesis of aggression.

According to this hypothesis, low dietary cholesterol intake leads to depressed central serotonergic activity, which itself has been reported in numerous studies of violent individuals."

•Researchers studied 25 violent psychiatric patients

•For 7 days, the patients wore signaling devices that emitted an average of seven signals a day.

•Following each signal, patients filled out a mood questionnaire.
The authors found that "Total serum cholesterol (TSC) concentration was positively associated with measures of affect, cognitive efficiency, activation, and sociability, suggesting a link between low TSC and dysphoria."

"These findings are consistent with the cholesterol-serotonin hypothesis and with the substantive literature linking both aggression and depression to depressed central serotonergic activity," they conclude.

Journal of Behavioral Medicine, December 1, 2000; 23: 519-529
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ssion.aspx


Also
Low cholesterol linked to violence

Low cholesterol may affect mood

Low cholesterol linked to depression

It's my firm belief, although I've no proof, that the manufacturers of designer drugs for depression, other "mood disorders" and "high" cholesterol actively attempt to supress information like this. :evil:
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby marc108 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:25 pm

while i tend to agree with you dan in general, about the suppression of information by drug companies. how these studies are presented is a good example of how information is incorrectly extrapolated from studies. low cholesterol in psych patients correlating to higher propensity for violence doesn't mean that higher cholesterol is safe or desirable or even that low cholesterol in healthy people will do the same thing... it doesnt even mean that low cholesterol has any causal relationship with violence in the psych patients! same goes for the increased mylenation thing...
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:39 pm

marc108 wrote:low cholesterol in psych patients correlating to higher propensity for violence doesn't mean that higher cholesterol is safe or desirable or even that low cholesterol in healthy people will do the same thing... it doesnt even mean that low cholesterol has any causal relationship with violence in the psych patients! same goes for the increased mylenation thing...


Well said. It is all too common for some to look for singular causes when that is rarely the case. In all likelihood any statistical relationship found in those studies was spurious and more likely to other causes such as malnutrition and environment. I highly doubt that patients at psych wards are all raw food vegans which is about the only way that one can have low cholesterol with the modern diet other than a nutrient deficient malnourished diet. I worked at a prison for several years which had plenty of violent offenders and there were a few lacto-ovo vegetarians but I don't recall a single vegan there.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:09 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Well said. It is all too common for some to look for singular causes when that is rarely the case. In all likelihood any statistical relationship found in those studies was spurious and more likely to other causes such as malnutrition and environment.


The evidence seems to be strong.


    The brain only makes up only 2% of the body's weight, yet it contains 25% of its cholesterol.

To me this speaks loudly. If you compromise building material for the brain and cells, then there is much greater chance of mental issues coming up.

    Cholesterol plays an important role in the production of hormones, according to the American Heart Association. Various glands in your body, like your adrenal glands, synthesize cholesterol into hormones like testosterone and cortisol. Such hormones are critical for proper nervous system functioning, mood balance and coping with stress link

    Repairing cells: Cholesterol is essential in the formation of new cells and in the repair of worn out cells or injured cells as it is an important component of the cell membrane. Thus cholesterol can rightly be called the building block for bodily tissues.*

    Brain function: Cholesterol has a very critical role to play in the nervous system. Treating the neurons with a 10 mcg/mL solution of cholesterol increased synapse formation by 12 times and thus improved learning and memory
    .**link


    Cholesterol is an important precursor molecule for the synthesis of vitamin D and the steroid hormones, including the adrenal gland hormones cortisol and aldosterone, as well as the sex hormones progesterone, estrogens, and testosterone, and their derivatives. link


Human breast milk contains significant amount of cholesterol. link So from nature's POV it is required substance for a developing human.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby marc108 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:18 pm

Alex123 wrote:The evidence seems to be strong.
To me this speaks loudly. If you compromise building material for the brain and cells, then there is much greater chance of mental issues coming up.


brain cholesterol is produced locally (in the brain), the blood brain barrier prevents cholesterol in the blood from entering the brain. so theoretically, blood cholesterol should have no effect on the brain inherently. another example of poorly interpreted studies on blog posts.

i'm not saying that driving cholesterol down to abnormally low numbers is good... but even with people on statins you dont see numbers down THAT low. even with drugs just to get someone with hyperlipidemia down below 200 is a challenge sometimes.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby Alex123 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:25 pm

marc108 wrote:
Alex123 wrote:The evidence seems to be strong.
To me this speaks loudly. If you compromise building material for the brain and cells, then there is much greater chance of mental issues coming up.


brain cholesterol is produced locally (in the brain), the blood brain barrier prevents cholesterol in the blood from entering the brain. so theoretically, blood cholesterol should have no effect on the brain inherently. another example of poorly interpreted studies on blog posts.

i'm not saying that driving cholesterol down to abnormally low numbers is good... but even with people on statins you dont see numbers down THAT low. even with drugs just to get someone with hyperlipidemia down below 200 is a challenge sometimes.



Effect on the body, and hormone production can affect the brain. Cholesterol (in reasonable amounts) is essential for health, and mother nature has made sure that mothers breast milk contains significant quantities of cholesterol.

From what I've read some statin (atorvastatin, lovastatin and simvastatin) drugs DO cross blood-brain- barrier


There are slight differences when it comes to other rare side effects such as insomnia where pravastatin, fluvastatin and rosuvastatin might be superior to atorvastatin, lovastatin and simvastatin. The latter are more fat-soluble, and therefore more likely to cross the blood-brain-barrier and influence brain metabolism, including sleep patterns. link



And just read about statin side effects...
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:24 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
marc108 wrote:low cholesterol in psych patients correlating to higher propensity for violence doesn't mean that higher cholesterol is safe or desirable or even that low cholesterol in healthy people will do the same thing... it doesnt even mean that low cholesterol has any causal relationship with violence in the psych patients! same goes for the increased mylenation thing...


Well said. It is all too common for some to look for singular causes when that is rarely the case. In all likelihood any statistical relationship found in those studies was spurious and more likely to other causes such as malnutrition and environment. I highly doubt that patients at psych wards are all raw food vegans which is about the only way that one can have low cholesterol with the modern diet other than a nutrient deficient malnourished diet. I worked at a prison for several years which had plenty of violent offenders and there were a few lacto-ovo vegetarians but I don't recall a single vegan there.

I agree, Dave, it is well said by Marc (and you). But the sellers of the drugs I mentioned bank on most people not understanding causality on the more sophisticated levels we're discussing it. I'm pretty much with Hume on causality. I don't like it and wish his criticisms weren't as valid as they appear to me, but I've found no way around it yet. Since the independent variable/dependent variable paradigms of the hypothetico-deductive methods of hypothesis testing are so flimsy from a philosophy of science perspective, the drug companies have to perpetuate the myth of their usefulness. It's not science. It's sales.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:41 am

marc108 wrote:brain cholesterol is produced locally (in the brain),

Would you mind citing some examples of the empirical evidence you believe supports this?
marc108 wrote:the blood brain barrier prevents cholesterol in the blood from entering the brain.

Would you mind citing some examples of the empirical evidence you believe supports this?
marc108 wrote:so theoretically, blood cholesterol should have no effect on the brain inherently.

Would you mind citing some examples of the empirical evidence you believe supports this?
marc108 wrote:another example of poorly interpreted studies on blog posts.
But you seem to be asking us to believe your interpretations over theirs, right? I know you probably have credentials but I'm interested in evidence. One expert opionion is still just an opinion (in fact, science is usually just fancy opining). Otherwise, we're in the fallacious territory of arguments from authority.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby marc108 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:23 pm

Alex123 wrote:From what I've read some statin (atorvastatin, lovastatin and simvastatin) drugs DO cross blood-brain- barrier


you are right! i looked into this a bit and it appears there is some preliminary evidence that they do decrease brain cholesterol production. scarey stuff & a perfect example of why drugs should always be a last resort.



danieLion wrote:Would you mind citing some examples of the empirical evidence you believe supports this?


the local production & BBB thing is just physiology not opinion.
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/24/5/806.short

systemic cholesterol circulation not effecting brain cholesterol is just my opinion... but alex made a good point about it effecting other things like hormone production which could effect brain function.

re: the mercola articles, i dont really have any interpretation of those studies. i'm just saying HE is incorrectly extrapolating information... this type of thing is REALLY common in nutrition research. it gets really sticky when you try to pinpoint specific effects for specific nutrients, because nutrients are often just markers for consumption of certain foods. the type of extrapolations mercola and others make from studies like this wouldnt be accepted in my university, even at the basic level... its something they've specifically beat us into understanding. correlation is not causation.

for example: higher cholesterol could be indicative of higher meat consumption, which would give you more b12 and maybe the b12 is actually whats improving their psych scores. it could be that they have some genetic abnormality and the low cholesterol is just a symptom of that... kind of how the smoke alarm isnt actually a fire, just an indicator of the fire. it could be that when you spread this study out to 10,000 people instead of 20, this association disappears. its hard to know... i'm not saying its baseless, i'm just saying that assuming causal mechanisms in the way those blogs are is just bad science.

this was also a huge issue during some initial testing of vitamin supplements. for ex: we noticed people with high levels of blood vitamin A had less lung cancer. so the assumption was made that it was the vitamin A decreasing cancer... when the vitamin A is isolated and given to people, lung cancer actually increases! turns out that vitamin A is just an indicator for who's consuming more fruits and vegetables, and its the higher intake of fruits and veggies that actually is correlated with less lung cancer... through some unknown mechanism.
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Re: The cholesterol myth

Postby danieLion » Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:39 am

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