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the great vegetarian debate - Page 102 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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GraemeR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby GraemeR » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:29 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:08 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:17 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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GraemeR
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby GraemeR » Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:23 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:20 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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GraemeR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby GraemeR » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:46 am


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polarbear101
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby polarbear101 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:51 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:30 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:57 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:45 am


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GraemeR
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby GraemeR » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:10 pm


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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:59 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:46 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:17 pm

I don't eat animals for various reasons (which I won't go into here) but I don't kid myself that I'm saving anyone from suffering. Let's say that a wordwide epiphany occurs tomorrow and everyone turns vegetarian. All the chickens are released. Here's my mad vision of what would happen: for about a week there would be a heck of a lot of happy wolves, jackals coyotes and dogs, then no more chickens, except for the ones people decide to keep as pets. Cows? Not sure, except they don't do all that well in the wild. Cows who have escaped from killing fields usually wander off into someone else's yard to ruminate. Pigs: wild pigs are dangerous. I used to camp in the Smokies and those bristlebacks will attack a human. Not that I blame them. I wouldn't want to contemplate the vengeance millions of freed swine would wreak on humanity.

Animals in the wild live horrible lives; everything in nature is busy killing and eating each other, there are very few exceptions.In fact, I can't think of any. If an animal doesn't die from being devoured, it usually dies from painful accident or disease. The average life expectancy of a feral cat, for example, is maybe two years. I used to volunteer with a local group that went to feral cat colonies, capture the little beasts to spay and neuter them, and re-release them. We also brought them food in the winter. They live hard lives. Anyone who abandons a cat should be turned loose naked in the mountains for a month to forage on his/her own and see how they like it.

Why do I bring this up? Because even if we shut down the horrible factory farms there is no escape from suffering. For any of us. And animals have it especially bad, except my cat who thinks she's living in the deva realm. Let's not, as vegetarians, pat ourselves on the back and think we're saviors. All we've done is make a decision not to intentionally eat animals. That's all. Doesn't make us better or worse than omnivores. When I was the moderator for the Veggie Forum over at pitiful remains of E-Sangha, that forum was a hornet's nest. Talk about suffering. I believe I cleansed my karma for a kalpa.

I'll close with the following. About once every couple of months I'll break my veggie ways and eat a cheeseburger, because I have this superstitious belief that every time I do so, a self-righteous angry vegan chokes to death on their tofu.

PEACE!

BB
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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:05 pm

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Love ya David :D

I think 100% compliance to anything is attachment to views. And climbing on someone's case because they don't practice 100% compliance is definitely attachment to views. :tongue:

I think it's easy to be a "passive" vegetarian, very easy in fact. I know people moan about how hard it is to quit eating meat like it's a heroic struggle with hellish demons from the lower realms. No it isn't. I did it and never looked back. The stuff is disgusting when you think about it, flesh and gristle and veins.If you think that a cow or chicken is the same thing as a dog or cat the slab of flesh isn't as appetizing. Equally easy to go on about the poor little animals, but what percentage of we flesh-avoiders actually do anything other than abstain from eating them? How many volunteer at a no-kill shelter, adopt a rescued chicken or two, throw some cash at animal-rescue causes?

BB
Love them animals, even the ornery ones
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:42 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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polarbear101
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Location: California

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby polarbear101 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:50 pm

Does the Buddha anywhere in the Pali canon suggest that lay followers of the Buddha should not purchase meat?
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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David N. Snyder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:43 am

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polarbear101
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby polarbear101 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:27 am

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."


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