Is there any levels of bad deeds

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C J
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Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby C J » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:54 pm

Hi,

Is there any mention of levels of bad deeds in Pali canon?

Is there any levels to bad deeds/kamma such as;
Getting something which was put aside by a rich person without letting him know and stealing from a poor man.
Killing an insect, a bigger animal or a human?

There are levels of good deeds one can perform as alms giving as it is stated in Velaama Sutta.
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/ScaleofGoodDeeds.html

Merits you get by perform some acts are far more superior to others, same way is there any levels in bad deeds?

Hope my question is clear enough.

Thanks,
CJ

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:07 pm

There are definitely actions more or less wholesome than one another. For example, killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in Hell whereas murdering an unenlightened person does not.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby David2 » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm

The more suffering a bad deed generates, the worse it is.
The more suffering a good deed prevents, the better it is. :smile:

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby xtracorrupt » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:55 pm

David2 wrote:The more suffering a bad deed generates, the worse it is.
The more suffering a good deed prevents, the better it is. :smile:


This, but also the more happiness a good dead brings, the better it is.

It is important to consider that some people do not fully understand the mechanism of suffering and therefore do not have permanent happiness and still reside in the world of requirements/satisfaction
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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby C J » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:14 am

Thanks for all replies but still I didn't get the answer I'm looking for. Can anyone please point me to a sutta where I can study this further.

More questions;
So if someone did a bad deed like killing mosquitoes and good deeds like giving alms to meditating monks, does his bad kamma get neutralized by good kamma?

If someone keep practicing metta meditations in this lifetime without doing much bad deeds can he neutralized some of his bad kamma in this life time?

Thanks a lot,
CJ

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby xtracorrupt » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:18 am

C J wrote:Thanks for all replies but still I didn't get the answer I'm looking for. Can anyone please point me to a sutta where I can study this further.

More questions;
So if someone did a bad deed like killing mosquitoes and good deeds like giving alms to meditating monks, does his bad kamma get neutralized by good kamma?

If someone keep practicing metta meditations in this lifetime without doing much bad deeds can he neutralized some of his bad kamma in this life time?

Thanks a lot,
CJ


the bad karma can be neutralized if the good karma is equal in goodness as to the badness of the bad karma

try picturing it like a scale, and causing suffering/preventing happiness of you or other people as bringing the scale down , but causing happiness and stopping suffering as bringing the scale up,

karma can be evaluated by how much suffering it causes/prevents and how much happiness it brings/prevents
theres is no need for needing

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby C J » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:30 am

As I understood aanantariya kamma are the worst, level 1 of bad deeds.
The five heinous crimes(aanantariyakamma) are: patricide, matricide, the murder of an Arahant, the wounding of a Buddha, and maliciously creating a schism in the Sangha.

What is the next level?

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby Mawkish1983 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:47 am

With regards to neutralising kamma, my understanding was that effect always follows cause and cannot be avoided by making new causes. I cannot think of any references to this right now.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:35 am

Mawkish1983 wrote:With regards to neutralising kamma, my understanding was that effect always follows cause and cannot be avoided by making new causes. I cannot think of any references to this right now.

Angulimala is a good example of not cutting off bad kamma.
he became an Arahant yet still had to meet the results of his actions. sure he didn't recieve all before death, but his attainment didn't nullify the actions done.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby whynotme » Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:47 am

C J wrote:As I understood aanantariya kamma are the worst, level 1 of bad deeds.
The five heinous crimes(aanantariyakamma) are: patricide, matricide, the murder of an Arahant, the wounding of a Buddha, and maliciously creating a schism in the Sangha.

What is the next level?

IMO, the next level is the five precepts, many times the Buddha said that doing those five actions will lead to hell and by not doing those five actions will lead happiness. I have never read anything worse than violating five precepts and not bad as aanantariya

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby CoreyNiles92 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:33 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:There are definitely actions more or less wholesome than one another. For example, killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in Hell whereas murdering an unenlightened person does not.



Is this accurate? If so I think my views on Buddhism just radically changed.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby CoreyNiles92 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:38 am

"the bad karma can be neutralized if the good karma is equal in goodness as to the badness of the bad karma

try picturing it like a scale, and causing suffering/preventing happiness of you or other people as bringing the scale down , but causing happiness and stopping suffering as bringing the scale up,

karma can be evaluated by how much suffering it causes/prevents and how much happiness it brings/prevents"
-----------------------------------------------------
I do not believe this is true. Karma doesn't work on a fixed scale, there isn't a central point that raises with good Karma, and lowers with bad Karma.

You obtain positive Karma, which is basically an action you made that later in life will bring about a positive feeling attached to that action.
And you obtain negative Karma, which is an action you made, that later in life will bring about a negative feeling attached to that action.

And enlightenment is freedom from Karma, you act morally righteous not intentionally, but naturally. Good deeds come about on their own, rather than by decision.

You could have 1,000 Positive Karmic seeds and 1,000 negative Karmic seeds. This won't put you into enlightenment smack in the middle, and it won't negate. You will have 1,000 experiences in life that will bring about positive or negative feelings based on the actions that created the seeds.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby CoreyNiles92 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:44 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:There are definitely actions more or less wholesome than one another. For example, killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in Hell whereas murdering an unenlightened person does not.


In fact if this is true, I am 100% done with Buddhism, and will be moving along to being a simple unenlightened being of lesser value than the great and mighty Arahant superiors.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby whynotme » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:46 am

CoreyNiles92 wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:There are definitely actions more or less wholesome than one another. For example, killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in Hell whereas murdering an unenlightened person does not.



Is this accurate? If so I think my views on Buddhism just radically changed.

Yes, it is accurate

Regards
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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby CoreyNiles92 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:55 am

Ahh well, I enjoyed my time learning about Buddhism while it lasted I had a completely different understanding on it's teachings. I don't value myself more than any other, so I do not wish to embark on a journey to become of greater value than anyone else.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby whynotme » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:33 am

CoreyNiles92 wrote:Ahh well, I enjoyed my time learning about Buddhism while it lasted I had a completely different understanding on it's teachings. I don't value myself more than any other, so I do not wish to embark on a journey to become of greater value than anyone else.

No, Buddhism isn't about becoming a greater value person than everyone else, and anyone who want to become a greater value person than everyone else can not advance in this path. In regards to killing arahant, I have a simile:

A senior member of a government, he wish to bring benefit and happiness to people, he is not selfish. Because of that attitude, he has a greater value than a robber, a cheater, a terrorist. So if anyone want to harm him, the police will protect him better than normal people. And if you kill him, even you get the same punishment as killing other, people will hate you more, they may attack you, curse you, revenge you, because you killed a good person to them. That is how cause and effect, or kamma works, killing good people is worse than killing bad people. And the arahant is a very good and kind person to anyone.

Here is another simile:
When in self defence, you killed someone, then you will get ease punishment. But if you killed someone to rob his assets, then you can get penalty because in this case you have much more bad actions and thoughts. Like that, if you meet a bad person, you can get angry an harm them, or kill them. But if you meet an arahant, who is pleasant to meet, who doesn't talk harshly, doesn't harm, doesn't cheat, doesn't kill, and you are angry with him, or kill him, in this case you do a much more bad action than than in cases you kill a robber or a terrorist. And because you do more bad actions, your kamma is worse.

The one who don't value himself more than other is actually better than the one who value himself more than other. And Buddhism is not the journey to become a more valued person, but a journey to become a happier person by destroying ignorance, hatred and greed.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby xtracorrupt » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:51 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mawkish1983 wrote:With regards to neutralising kamma, my understanding was that effect always follows cause and cannot be avoided by making new causes. I cannot think of any references to this right now.

Angulimala is a good example of not cutting off bad kamma.
he became an Arahant yet still had to meet the results of his actions. sure he didn't recieve all before death, but his attainment didn't nullify the actions done.


My intention thinks this is an amazing example
theres is no need for needing

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby seeker242 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:22 pm

CoreyNiles92 wrote:
LonesomeYogurt wrote:There are definitely actions more or less wholesome than one another. For example, killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in Hell whereas murdering an unenlightened person does not.


In fact if this is true, I am 100% done with Buddhism, and will be moving along to being a simple unenlightened being of lesser value than the great and mighty Arahant superiors.


I think you misunderstand why killing an Arahant makes worse kamma. It would be a shame to completely abandon the Buddha's teaching over a misunderstanding IMO.

:namaste:

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby CoreyNiles92 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:21 pm

I always make an attempt to understand all that is offered to me as far as wisdom goes. But I found myself rejecting this idea that killing an Arahant guarantees rebirth in hell, whereas killing an unenlightened person does not.

Punishment requires mandate, which implies authority. That being said, if the Buddha believed taking the life of an Arahant would guarantee rebirth in hell for punishment, that with authority he has decided so.

So given that an authoritative judgement has been given on the subject, actions spark reactions. The reaction to the act of murdering someone has it's natural order, such as causing grief and guilt, as well as making it easier to murder again, the biological reaction is that a person will realize their moral crime, and find that in comparison most other moral atrocities might be excused, and they will be driven back to a primal state of acting on biological response rather than with logic, and a moral compass. And the artificial response implemented by humans, would be punishing someone for a crime, or passing judgement as to what punishment any particular crime deserves.

So if one were to say, killing an Arahant warrants greater punishment than killing an unenlightened being, this is an artificial response to the act of murder, the response is based on circumstance. To make a proper judgement you must weigh certain factors, such as value, circumstance, and reason. The issue I am having here, is the idea of making judgement over a persons life, based on value. Because I personally believe it to be impossible to place any more or less value on a persons life, compared to another. All life is precious and valuable beyond measure, and no life is of greater or lesser importance than the next.

When given the original thought, I saw only that an Arahant, and an unenlightened being were being compared in regards to punishment for their murder. No other details were given. All of this being said, with no details but their position in life being given, any judgement passed on them will be based purely on the value of their lives in comparison to eachother. Therefore placing an Arahant at higher value than an unenlightened being, leading to the decision if ever placed in a situation to choose, that one would spare an Arahant before sparing an unenlightened being because an Arahant is of greater value. This idea works only without a moral compass, which seems to be against the very idea of Buddhism.

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Re: Is there any levels of bad deeds

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:48 pm

It's not about value. It's not about punishment. Killing an arahant prevents all the skillful actions he would perform, removing all the potential merit. Other deaths are still subject to dependent origination and rebecoming. By killing an arahant you cause a far wider effect. Causality. That is all.

The Buddha recognised this.


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