SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

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SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:57 am

SN 46.55 PTS: S v 121 CDB ii 1611
Sangaravo Sutta: Sangarava
The Hindrances
translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe


Why do some sacred texts seem clear, while others are muddled?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html



[At Saavatthii the Brahman Sangaarava asked the Buddha:] "Why is it, good Gotama, how does it come about that sometimes sacred words[1] I have long studied are not clear to me, not to mention those I have not studied? And how is it too that sometimes other sacred words that I have not so studied are clear to me, not to mention those I have studied?"

"Well, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires, and does not know, as it really is, the way of escape from sense-desires that have arisen, then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, nor can he know and see what is to the profit of others, or of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied.

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed with ill-will... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, heated on a fire, boiling up and bubbling over. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sloth-and-torpor... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water covered over with slimy moss and water-plants. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, so that the water trembled, eddied and rippled. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water, agitated, stirred up muddied, put in a dark place. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has studied. But, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart not possessed, not overwhelmed by sense-desires... ill-will... sloth-and-torpor... worry-and-flurry... doubt-and-wavering... [like the five bowls of water not as previously described, but 'clear, limpid, pellucid, set in the open']... then he knows and sees, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both himself and others. Then even sacred words he has not long studied are clear to him, not to mention those he has studied."

Notes

1. Mantaa: "mantras" or, presumably, sacred texts of the Brahmans.
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:00 pm

then he knows and sees, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both himself and others.


I think this is right view...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby Caraka » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:18 pm

Let go of
sense-desires... ill-will... sloth-and-torpor... worry-and-flurry... doubt-and-wavering
.., else one will not be able to see what really is?

It sounds easy, I think not so easy :tongue:
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby santa100 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:40 pm

Its' a wonderful sutta... :anjali: The link below could be a good accompaniment to SN 46.55 for it shows the specifics on how to tackle the Five Hindrances..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:20 pm

santa100 wrote:Its' a wonderful sutta... :anjali: The link below could be a good accompaniment to SN 46.55 for it shows the specifics on how to tackle the Five Hindrances..

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html

Thanks Santa, That is a great collection.

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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:38 pm

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's Translation:

    BB: The sutta is also at AN III 230-36, but without the last paragraph on the enlightenment factors. See too Ja No. 185 (II 99-101).

“Brahmin, when one dwells with a mind obsessed by sensual lust, overwhelmed by sensual lust, and one does not understand as it really is the escape from arisen sensual lust, on that occasion one neither knows nor sees as it really is one’s own good, or the good of others, or the good of both. Then even those hymns that have been recited over a long period do not recur to the mind, let alone those that have not been recited.

“Suppose, brahmin, there is a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, blue dye, or crimson dye. If a man with good sight were to examine his own facial reflection in it, he would neither know nor see it as it really is. So too, brahmin, when one dwells with a mind obsessed by sensual lust … … on that occasion even those hymns that have been recited over a long period do not recur to the mind, let alone those that have not been recited.


    BB: Spk applies the idea of the threefold escape (nissaraṇa) to each hindrance: by suppression (vikkhambhananissaraṇa) through jhāna; in a particular respect (tadaṅga-) through insight; and by eradication (samuccheda-) through the path. Thus: (i) sensual desire is suppressed by the first jhāna based on foulness and eradicated by the path of arahantship (since kāmacchanda is here interpreted widely enough to include desire for any object, not only for sensual pleasures); (ii) ill will is suppressed by the first jhāna based on lovingkindness and eradicated by the path of nonreturning; (iii) sloth and torpor are suppressed by the perception of light (i.e., visualization of a bright light, like the disc of the sun or the full moon) and eradicated by the path of arahantship; (iv) restlessness and remorse are suppressed by serenity, remorse is eradicated by the path of nonreturning and restlessness by the path of arahantship; and (v) doubt is suppressed by the defining of phenomena (dhammavavatthāna ; see Vism 587-89; Ppn 18:3-8) and eradicated by the path of stream-entry.
    In his AN translation BB summarises Mp (commentary), which, for sensual desire, gives the escape in a particular respect (tadaṅganissarana) through insight. Mp does not apply "escape in a particular respect" to the last four hindrances, but Mp-t (sub-commentary) says it occurs in that the hindrances can be dispelled by reflection (patisankhanavasena tassa vinodetabbataya tanganissaranampi labbhat'eva).
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:48 pm

The Commentary advice for abandoning the hindrences can be compared to the Sutta references given above by Santa100, and other Suttas.

The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest
Selected Texts from the Pali Canon and the Commentaries

compiled and translated by
Nyanaponika Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el026.html

Sutta quotes from SN 46:51 Ahara Sutta: Food
Alternative translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn46/sn46.051.than.html

1 B. Denourishing of Sensual Desire

There are impure objects (used for meditation); frequently giving wise attention to them — this is the denourishing of the arising of sensual desire that has not yet arisen, and the denourishing of the increase and strengthening of sensual desire that has already arisen.


2 B. Denourishing of Ill-Will

There is the liberation of the heart by loving-kindness; frequently giving wise attention to it — this is the denourishing of the arising of ill-will that has not yet arisen, and the decrease and weakening of ill-will that has already arisen.


3 B. Denourishing of Sloth and Torpor

There is the element of rousing one's energy, the element of exertion, the element of continuous exertion; frequently giving wise attention to it — this is the denourishing of the arising of sloth and torpor that have not yet arisen and of the increase and strengthening of sloth and torpor that have already arisen.


4 B. Denourishing of Restlessness and Remorse

There is quietude of mind; frequently giving wise attention to it — that is the denourishing of the arising of restlessness and remorse that have not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of restlessness and remorse that have already arisen.


5 B. Denourishing of Doubt

There are things which are wholesome or unwholesome, blameless or blameworthy, noble or low, and (other) contrasts of dark and bright; frequently giving wise attention to them — that is the denourishing of the arising of doubt that has not yet arisen, and of the increase and strengthening of doubt that has already arisen.

    Nyanaponika Thera:
    Of the six things conducive to the abandonment of doubt, the first three and the last two are identical with those given for restlessness and remorse. The fourth is as follows:

    Firm conviction concerning the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

    In addition, the following are helpful in conquering Doubt:

    Reflection, of the factors of absorption (jhananga);
    Wisdom, of the spiritual faculties (indriya);
    Investigation of reality, of the factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga).


I, 2, and 4 above are essentially the same as the Commentary.
The other two seem a little different, but for 3 the perception of light is in
AN 7.58. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
For 5, doubt see:
Sn 5.5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Ud 5.7 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby equilibrium » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:43 pm

when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sense-desires, and does not know, as it really is.....

when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed with ill-will... then he cannot know or see.....

when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sloth-and-torpor... then he cannot know or see.....

when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see.....

when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by doubt-and-wavering... he cannot know or see.....

.....and finally:
when a man dwells with his heart not possessed, not overwhelmed by sense-desires... ill-will... sloth-and-torpor... worry-and-flurry... doubt-and-wavering... [like the five bowls of water not as previously described, but 'clear, limpid, pellucid, set in the open']... then he knows and sees, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both himself and others.

What is the target?
What is the target trying to achieve?
What are blocking it from achievement?
Once the target is achieved, what are the benefits/fruits?
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:39 pm

The translation by Walshe omits the last part of the sutta, listing the factors of enlightenment.

From Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
“Suppose, brahmin, there is a bowl of water that is clear, serene, limpid, set out in the light. If a man with good sight were to examine his own facial reflection in it, he would know and see it as it really is. So too, brahmin, when one dwells with a mind that is not obsessed by doubt ... on that occasion even those hymns that have not been recited over a long period recur to the mind, let alone those that have been recited.

“This, brahmin, is the cause and reason why even those hymns that have not been recited over a long period recur to the mind, let alone those that have been recited.

“These seven factors of enlightenment, brahmin, are nonobstructions, nonhindrances, noncorruptions of the mind; when developed and cultivated they lead to the realization of the fruit of true knowledge and liberation. What seven? The enlightenment factor of mindfulness is a nonobstruction … The enlightenment factor of equanimity is a nonobstruction.… These seven factors of enlightenment are nonobstructions, nonhindrances, noncorruptions of the mind; when developed and cultivated they lead to the realization of the fruit of true knowledge and liberation.”

When this was said, the brahmin Saṅgārava said to the Blessed One: “Magnificent, Master Gotama!… From today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.”
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:14 am

MN 39. Mahā-Assapura Sutta
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1432&start=0
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Has a different set of similes, revolving around the abandoning of the Hindrances.

[Covetousness]
"Suppose that a man, taking a loan, invests it in his business affairs. His business affairs succeed. He repays his old debts and has extra left over for maintaining his wife. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, taking a loan, I invested it in my business affairs. Now my business affairs have succeeded. I have repaid my old debts and have extra left over for maintaining my wife.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness.

[Ill will]
"Now suppose that a man falls sick — in pain & seriously ill. He does not enjoy his meals and has no measure of strength in his body. At a later time he is released from that sickness. He enjoys his meals and has a measure of strength in his body. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was sick... Now I am released from that sickness. I enjoy my meals and have a measure of strength in my body.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness.

[Sloth and drowsiness]
"Now suppose that a man is bound in prison. At a later time he is released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was bound in prison. Now I am released from that bondage, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness.

[Restlessness]
"Now suppose that a man, subject to others, not subject to himself, unable to go where he likes. At a later time he is released from that slavery, subject to himself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where he likes. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, I was a slave... Now I am released from that slavery, subject to myself, not subject to others, freed, able to go where I like.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness.

[Uncertainty]
"Now suppose that a man, carrying money & goods, is traveling by a road through desolate country. At a later time he emerges from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of property. The thought would occur to him, 'Before, carrying money & goods, I was traveling by a road through desolate country. Now I have emerged from that desolate country, safe & sound, with no loss of my property.' Because of that he would gain joy & experience happiness.


Discussion of these similes from the Commentary is here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#comm

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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:03 am

This line is often quoted on this forum:
"We don't use the Pali Canon as a basis for orthodoxy, we use the Pali Canon to investigate our experience."
-- Ajahn Sumedho.

Though I've not found the source (it seems to have gone viral on the Internet) I think it sums up well how useful suttas such as this one are. I can still recall sitting on a Goenka retreat five years ago, and realising that what I was feeling was well-described by this simile of "water ruffled by the wind":
"Again, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by worry-and-flurry... then he cannot know or see...

"Imagine a bowl of water ruffled by the wind, so that the water trembled, eddied and rippled. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was...

This is why it is essential to have the key concepts memorized. In the "heat" of practice one can't just slip out to the library to check...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby equilibrium » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:51 am

equilibrium wrote:What is the target?
What is the target trying to achieve?
What are blocking it from achievement?
Once the target is achieved, what are the benefits/fruits?

The target is the "heart".
To achieve stillness / calm......just like the water reflection.
Obstructions are the sense desires, ill-will, sloth-and-torpor, worry-and-flurry and doubt-and-wavering.
When the "heart" is still/calm, one will be able to know and see.
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Re: SN 46.55: Sangaravo Sutta (The Hindrances)

Postby Yana » Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:44 am

So to understand the Dhamma well ,which will lead to seeing the true nature of existence and set us free from suffering we must get rid off the 5 hindrances.

These are the techniques i personally use to counter it and gradually reduce and finally get rid of it.

1. Craving for sense-desires is countered by:
Meditating on Foulness.
Meditation on the Body.

2. Ill-will is countered by:
Metta Bhavana, Dana,Keeping the 5 precepts.

3. Sloth-and-torpor is countered by:
Reading & contemplating Dhamma Books, usually makes me energetic.
Meditation on Death, which will make me realize i shouldn't be wasting my time doing useless things.

4. Worry-and-flurry is countered by:
Anapanasati,which calms the mind.

5.Doubt-and-wavering is countered by:
Faith and Wisdom.
Faith through prayers,lighting candles,chants,seeking inspiration from the Buddha,Dhamma,and Sangha. Wisdom by investigation and analyzing the reality of things,using a sound mind to reaffirm and banish all doubt.

:anjali: :candle:
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