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NO self - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

NO self

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:01 am

Perhaps this sutta appeals to you Alex:

Question: Is suffering caused by the self?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused by external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused both by oneself and external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: Is suffering then caused neither by oneself nor external factors?

Answer: Do not put it that way.

Question: In that case, is there no such thing as suffering?

Answer: It is not that there is no such thing as suffering. Suffering does exist.

Question: In that case, is it that Venerable Gotama does not see or know suffering?

Answer: It is not that I do not see or know suffering. I do indeed know and see suffering.

Question: May the Blessed One please tell me then, please instruct me, about suffering.

Answer: To say 'suffering is caused by the self,' is the same as saying 'he who acts receives the results (suffering).' This tends to the eternalist view (sassataditthi). Saying 'suffering is caused by other agents,' as a person who experiences sharp and painful feelings would feel, is just like saying, 'one person acts, another suffers.' This tends to the annihilationist view (ucchedaditthi). The Tathagata, avoiding those two extremes, proclaims a teaching that is balanced, thus, 'With ignorance as condition there are volitional impulses; with volitional impulses as condition, consciousness ... with the complete abandoning of ignorance, volitional impulses cease; with the cessation of volitional impulses, consciousness ceases ...' [S.II.19]

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mikenz66
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Re: NO self

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:19 am

Thanks Robert,

There are various comments about that Sutta on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11403

:anjali:
Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:24 am


pegembara
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Re: NO self

Postby pegembara » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:49 am

And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Alex123
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Re: NO self

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

twelph
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Re: NO self

Postby twelph » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:06 pm

With the Buddha stating that the Dhamma is "visible here and now", how are we able to cultivate a view of "no-self"? I am able to view each of the aggregates as not-self, but trying to cultivate a view of the self not existing is not something I can comprehend trying to practice with. As far as I know, the only things that the Buddha wanted us to take as fact are the 4 noble truths. Annata seems to only be grouped with right view when the three marks of existence are mentioned, but there is controversy about it being grouped together with dukkha and anicca.

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robertk
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Re: NO self

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:44 pm

By hearing or reading deep teachings on anatta there will/may (it depends) begin to be wise consideration about this matter. And that is the first step, which will/may, lead to moments of seeing the anattaness of realities that are appearing now.
For example, one might start to see that no one can make or stop a moment of seeing arise: it simply happens that there is seeing (cakkhuvinnana) when the eyes are open.There is no self deciding to see.

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DAWN
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Re: NO self

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:35 pm

All that impermanent is conditioned.
All that conditioned don't have any independent existence.

Because all fenomena is conditioned, there is no independant self.
There is fenomenal self, but that self is no-self, because conditioned, there is no doer, fenomenas condition them selves and keep they narutal mouvement of causes and consequances.

Self is brain memory about past fenomenas.
There is no past fenomenas in the present.
There is no memory in the present.
There is no self.
All that birn will dead.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

SamKR
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Re: NO self

Postby SamKR » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:47 am

I think there are two types of "no self". The first is the wrong view of "no self" related to ucchedavada.
The second is the right view that "" is "not self"; or that there is "no self" in "all".
So to me,
no-self = not-self
In "" we can not find any immutable and indivisible "doer" which "does" with "free will".

Reductor
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Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: NO self

Postby Reductor » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:06 am

:goodpost:

dhammapal
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: NO self

Postby dhammapal » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:22 am

Hi,

Check out . The Buddha says that he's never heard of the view that there is no self-doer and asks the brahman if he agrees that there is an element of initiating or beginning an action.

With metta / dhammapal.






SamKR
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Re: NO self

Postby SamKR » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:47 am

Last edited by SamKR on Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

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DAWN
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Re: NO self

Postby DAWN » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:11 am

Into jail we can move to, but we can't go out.
All fenomena, all that can be known is conditioned, not free, not self.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...

whynotme
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Re: NO self

Postby whynotme » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:49 am

Please stop following me

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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:04 am


whynotme
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Re: NO self

Postby whynotme » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:29 am

Please stop following me

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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:38 am


whynotme
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Re: NO self

Postby whynotme » Mon Nov 05, 2012 2:58 am

Please stop following me

SamKR
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Re: NO self

Postby SamKR » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:54 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: NO self

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:49 am



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