no attachement = no expectations

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no attachement = no expectations

Postby puppha » Sat Nov 03, 2012 6:57 pm

Dear Dhamma friends,

The following thought occurred to me: "no attachement = no expectations"

Not being attached to a car, a house, money, a person, etc. would be the same as not expecting anything out of that car, that house, that money, that person.
On the other side, if you have no expectations about an object, a person, or an idea, would that not be the same as not being attached to that object, person or idea?

What are your opinions?

Metta
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:43 pm

No attachment = no opinions ? :stirthepot:
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:21 pm

Expectation is suffering
No expectation, no suffering
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:00 pm

puppha wrote:Dear Dhamma friends,

The following thought occurred to me: "no attachement = no expectations"

Not being attached to a car, a house, money, a person, etc. would be the same as not expecting anything out of that car, that house, that money, that person.
On the other side, if you have no expectations about an object, a person, or an idea, would that not be the same as not being attached to that object, person or idea?

What are your opinions?

Metta

I have no attachment to the US elections, doesn't mean I don't have an expectation or opinion about them as I find it quite interesting. same with UK elections. neither have a direct impact on my life, but that doesn't mean I am attached or lack expectations either way round.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby ground » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:50 am

puppha wrote:The following thought occurred to me: "no attachement = no expectations"

Not being attached to a car, a house, money, a person, etc. would be the same as not expecting anything out of that car, that house, that money, that person.
On the other side, if you have no expectations about an object, a person, or an idea, would that not be the same as not being attached to that object, person or idea?

What are your opinions?

Expecting a form to be {this or that} a form is perceived as being {this or that}.
Expecting a sound to be {this or that} a sound is perceived as being {this or that}.
Expecting a smell ...
Expecting an idea to be more than merely an idea an idea is perceived as being "true". :sage:
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:41 am

Hi Puppha
To me none attachment means seen the objects in terms of Three basic facts of existence. Ie Egolessness, Unsatisfactoryness and Impermanence

Please see more details in the following link and select the relevant article.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bpslist.html
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby pegembara » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:30 am

When anicca is fully accepted there is no expectations. Every breath may well be the last. There is absolutely no expectations of anything.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby puppha » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:08 am

Many thanks to all contributors, there are good comments here that got me thinking!

Let's do a bit of logic.

If I am clinging to something, then it looks to me that I must have expecations about what that thing will bring to me.
If I am not clinging to something, then I think it implies that I am not expecting anything from it.
If I have expectations about something, then I will be happy if it gives the desired results, and unhappy if it won't; so I am clinging to it.
If I have no expectations about something, can I still be attached to it? I don't know on this one...

Cittasanto wrote:I have no attachment to the US elections, doesn't mean I don't have an expectation or opinion about them as I find it quite interesting. same with UK elections. neither have a direct impact on my life, but that doesn't mean I am attached or lack expectations either way round.

I find this a bit difficult to understand...
How is it possible to have an interest in something and have no expectations/opinions about it?
In the example you gave, I would tend to favour one candidate over the other. I would hope that the candidate who is more likely to bring peace and well-being for all people would be elected. And I would be disappointed if (s)he is not...

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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:50 am

puppha wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I have no attachment to the US elections, doesn't mean I don't have an expectation or opinion about them as I find it quite interesting. same with UK elections. neither have a direct impact on my life, but that doesn't mean I am attached or lack expectations either way round.

I find this a bit difficult to understand...
How is it possible to have an interest in something and have no expectations/opinions about it?

Did I imply that somewhere?
see the underlined part, I said I do have an opinion and expectation, but now the result is in I am hardly moved by it. the election wasn't a personal thing in any way for me Obama or Romney didn't have to win or loose for me to be happy or disappointed.

In the example you gave, I would tend to favour one candidate over the other. I would hope that the candidate who is more likely to bring peace and well-being for all people would be elected. And I would be disappointed if (s)he is not...

that is taking it personally, if there is no personal investment there is no attachment.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:01 am

Cittasanto wrote:
puppha wrote:Dear Dhamma friends,


I have no attachment to the US elections.


I imagine that you do have attachment and that will affect your perception of the US elections.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:03 am

DAWN wrote:Expectation is suffering
No expectation, no suffering


Or

Expectation is suffering
No expectation is suffering

What are the expectations of a rabbit?
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:05 am

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
puppha wrote:Dear Dhamma friends,


I have no attachment to the US elections.


I imagine that you do have attachment and that will affect your perception of the US elections.

you may wish to read the part after the comma.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby DAWN » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:18 am

Mr Man wrote:
DAWN wrote:Expectation is suffering
No expectation, no suffering


Or

Expectation is suffering
No expectation is suffering

What are the expectations of a rabbit?


Actuly i dont see what you mean by "No expectation is suffering", perharps that suffering is something more global, and not totaly depends on expectation? If it is, i'am agree with you, all existance is suffering, with or without expectation.

Expectation of a rabbit is expectation to survive, to reproduse himself.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:46 am

Cittasanto wrote:you may wish to read the part after the comma.


I did.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:52 am

DAWN wrote:

Expectation of a rabbit is expectation to survive, to reproduse himself.
I'm not sure if survival and reproduction would be expectation - more instinct.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby DAWN » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:18 pm

Mr Man wrote:
DAWN wrote:

Expectation of a rabbit is expectation to survive, to reproduse himself.
I'm not sure if survival and reproduction would be expectation - more instinct.


Perharps instinct is some kind of very BASICAL expectation, the very first expectation, very basical need, inconscios expectation. Anyway this instinctive expectation brings suffering birth aging and death.

So if reproduction is basical expectation of all living beings, even in physical level it brings suffering, it's a cause of all suffering, because this expectation is a case of birning, aging and death of living beings.
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:25 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:you may wish to read the part after the comma.


I did.

then you should realise having attachments doesn't mean being attached to everything.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Mr Man » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:42 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:you may wish to read the part after the comma.


I did.

then you should realise having attachments doesn't mean being attached to everything.


Or you should realise that thinking we are not attached and really being not attached are not the same. Attachment can be subtle and also quite nebulus
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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:31 pm

I think it says in the Dhamapada somewhere that "Expectation makes an ex out of Pec and some other guy named Tation." Or maybe I saw that in the men's room at Penn Station. Anyway, it's true. I think a lot of people bring on their own misery by trying to meet other's expectations of them. I believe in this case that other people's expectations are their kamma, not mine. As for my own expectations I do have them, even of other people, but when I do I try to discuss them and reach an understanding. For example, if I'm in a relationship with someone, I expect communication, cooperation, shared trust, not stabbing me in my sleep, things like that. If I wake up with a knife sticking out of me, I realize my expectations were unrealistic and I try to figure out whether I'm Pec or Tation. In either case, I'm definitely an ex. :P

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Re: no attachement = no expectations

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:48 pm

Mr Man wrote:Or you should realise that thinking we are not attached and really being not attached are not the same. Attachment can be subtle and also quite nebulus

only one of us has the perspective to tell.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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