Taking awareness as self

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
jackson
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Taking awareness as self

Post by jackson »

Hi everyone,
I have a question for more advanced practitioners regarding awareness. With objective things they can all be observed to be anicca, dukkha, anatta, but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
Thanks, and I hope that made sense,
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by tiltbillings »

jackson wrote:Hi everyone,
I have a question for more advanced practitioners regarding awareness. With objective things they can all be observed to be anicca, dukkha, anatta, but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
Thanks, and I hope that made sense,
Jackson
It makes sense. Simply, don't worry about it. If there is a subtle sense of self, simply pay attention to it without comment. Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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Ben
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by Ben »

In addition to Tilt's advice...
If you are practicing vipassana meditation then you will in all likeliness pay attention to the anicca characteristic of the meditation object.
In the Satipatthana Sutta, the repeated refrain atapi sampajjano satima translates imprecisely as ardently and with full comprehension and awareness .
As you continue,the quality of your observation will change. As Tilt says - don't worry about it. Just be aware, and be equanimous.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Reductor
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by Reductor »

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?
Inconstant. Is that part of the definition of 'self'? To be inconstant?
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James the Giant
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by James the Giant »

jackson wrote:but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
I had an interesting discussion with Ajahn Viradhammo a while back. We were talking about my meditation, and I said how when I got really good and aware, I would sometimes meditate on awareness. That is, make awareness itself the subject of the meditation.
Awareness being aware of awareness. Wacky!!
He was quite enthusiastic and encouraging about it, and said yes I could certainly continue like that. He said as I looked at awareness itself, I would eventually see that that awareness, that sense of self bound up in awareness, could disappear, unlink itself from awareness and extinguish temporarily, leaving only awareness and no "self".
And it did! Shocking! Bliss, coolness, release...
Then the "self" rekindled and I was back as normal old me. Sigh! Can't it be forever!? Not until final nibbana I guess.

So just like everyone else above has been saying, don't worry about it, just keep on keeping on. There's no trick to it, just work and persistence.

(mind you, I asked the same question of Luang Por Piak, and he said NO, don't focus on awareness, just come back to sensations, sensations, breath, breath.)
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?
Do the practice. Awareness arises and falls dependent upon conditions. What does that make it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Polar Bear
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by Polar Bear »

"'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of construings.'

"'I am' is a perturbation. 'I am this' is a perturbation. 'I shall be' is a perturbation. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a perturbation. Perturbation is a disease, perturbation is a cancer, perturbation is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of perturbations.'

"'I am' is a wavering. 'I am this' is a wavering. 'I shall be' is a wavering. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a wavering. Wavering is a disease, wavering is a cancer, wavering is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of waverings.'

"'I am' is a objectification. 'I am this' is a objectification. 'I shall be' is a objectification. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a objectification. Objectification is a disease, objectification is a cancer, objectification is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of objectifications.'

"'I am' is an act of conceit. 'I am this' is an act of conceit. 'I shall be' is an act of conceit. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is an act of conceit. An act of conceit is a disease, an act of conceit is a cancer, an act of conceit is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of acts of conceit.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
daverupa
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by daverupa »

It isn't the same awareness, as has been intimated above.

Awareness must be defined according to its content; this is why contact involves vinnana no matter what, but that vinnana isn't the same from one percept to the next. What strings them together is memory, associations... sankhara, in other words. And this is based on avijja, to start, so the question is about the eradication of avijja - the very point of the Dhamma, but here the problem is being seen with some clarity, rather than taken as a doctrinal point.

Keep on a-truckin'...

MN 95:

"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities..."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?
Do the practice. Awareness arises and falls dependent upon conditions. What does that make it?
I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?

You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
  • Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by m0rl0ck »

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?

You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
  • Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?

You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
  • Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?
You do not know the answer to this question?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Goofaholix
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by Goofaholix »

m0rl0ck wrote: Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?
Vinnana.

It's a process not a thing.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Taking awareness as self

Post by m0rl0ck »

Goofaholix wrote: Vinnana.

It's a process not a thing.
Thanks, thats helpful.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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