Hi everyone,
I have a question for more advanced practitioners regarding awareness. With objective things they can all be observed to be anicca, dukkha, anatta, but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
Thanks, and I hope that made sense,
Jackson
Taking awareness as self
Taking awareness as self
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah
- tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self
It makes sense. Simply, don't worry about it. If there is a subtle sense of self, simply pay attention to it without comment. Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.jackson wrote:Hi everyone,
I have a question for more advanced practitioners regarding awareness. With objective things they can all be observed to be anicca, dukkha, anatta, but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
Thanks, and I hope that made sense,
Jackson
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Taking awareness as self
This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
Re: Taking awareness as self
In addition to Tilt's advice...
If you are practicing vipassana meditation then you will in all likeliness pay attention to the anicca characteristic of the meditation object.
In the Satipatthana Sutta, the repeated refrain atapi sampajjano satima translates imprecisely as ardently and with full comprehension and awareness .
As you continue,the quality of your observation will change. As Tilt says - don't worry about it. Just be aware, and be equanimous.
kind regards,
Ben
If you are practicing vipassana meditation then you will in all likeliness pay attention to the anicca characteristic of the meditation object.
In the Satipatthana Sutta, the repeated refrain atapi sampajjano satima translates imprecisely as ardently and with full comprehension and awareness .
As you continue,the quality of your observation will change. As Tilt says - don't worry about it. Just be aware, and be equanimous.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Taking awareness as self
Inconstant. Is that part of the definition of 'self'? To be inconstant?m0rl0ck wrote:This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
- James the Giant
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Re: Taking awareness as self
I had an interesting discussion with Ajahn Viradhammo a while back. We were talking about my meditation, and I said how when I got really good and aware, I would sometimes meditate on awareness. That is, make awareness itself the subject of the meditation.jackson wrote:but awareness is subjective so if there's a subtle feeling that this is what I am how does one go about eradicating that misperception?
Awareness being aware of awareness. Wacky!!
He was quite enthusiastic and encouraging about it, and said yes I could certainly continue like that. He said as I looked at awareness itself, I would eventually see that that awareness, that sense of self bound up in awareness, could disappear, unlink itself from awareness and extinguish temporarily, leaving only awareness and no "self".
And it did! Shocking! Bliss, coolness, release...
Then the "self" rekindled and I was back as normal old me. Sigh! Can't it be forever!? Not until final nibbana I guess.
So just like everyone else above has been saying, don't worry about it, just keep on keeping on. There's no trick to it, just work and persistence.
(mind you, I asked the same question of Luang Por Piak, and he said NO, don't focus on awareness, just come back to sensations, sensations, breath, breath.)
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
- tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self
Do the practice. Awareness arises and falls dependent upon conditions. What does that make it?m0rl0ck wrote:This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Polar Bear
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Re: Taking awareness as self
"'I am' is a construing. 'I am this' is a construing. 'I shall be' is a construing. 'I shall not be'...'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a construing. Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of construings.'
"'I am' is a perturbation. 'I am this' is a perturbation. 'I shall be' is a perturbation. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a perturbation. Perturbation is a disease, perturbation is a cancer, perturbation is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of perturbations.'
"'I am' is a wavering. 'I am this' is a wavering. 'I shall be' is a wavering. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a wavering. Wavering is a disease, wavering is a cancer, wavering is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of waverings.'
"'I am' is a objectification. 'I am this' is a objectification. 'I shall be' is a objectification. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a objectification. Objectification is a disease, objectification is a cancer, objectification is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of objectifications.'
"'I am' is an act of conceit. 'I am this' is an act of conceit. 'I shall be' is an act of conceit. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is an act of conceit. An act of conceit is a disease, an act of conceit is a cancer, an act of conceit is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of acts of conceit.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"'I am' is a perturbation. 'I am this' is a perturbation. 'I shall be' is a perturbation. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a perturbation. Perturbation is a disease, perturbation is a cancer, perturbation is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of perturbations.'
"'I am' is a wavering. 'I am this' is a wavering. 'I shall be' is a wavering. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a wavering. Wavering is a disease, wavering is a cancer, wavering is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of waverings.'
"'I am' is a objectification. 'I am this' is a objectification. 'I shall be' is a objectification. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is a objectification. Objectification is a disease, objectification is a cancer, objectification is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of objectifications.'
"'I am' is an act of conceit. 'I am this' is an act of conceit. 'I shall be' is an act of conceit. 'I shall not be'... 'I shall be possessed of form'... 'I shall not be possessed of form'... 'I shall be percipient'... 'I shall not be percipient'... 'I shall be neither percipient nor non-percipient' is an act of conceit. An act of conceit is a disease, an act of conceit is a cancer, an act of conceit is an arrow. Therefore, monks, you should train yourselves: 'We will dwell with an awareness free of acts of conceit.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
Re: Taking awareness as self
It isn't the same awareness, as has been intimated above.
Awareness must be defined according to its content; this is why contact involves vinnana no matter what, but that vinnana isn't the same from one percept to the next. What strings them together is memory, associations... sankhara, in other words. And this is based on avijja, to start, so the question is about the eradication of avijja - the very point of the Dhamma, but here the problem is being seen with some clarity, rather than taken as a doctrinal point.
Keep on a-truckin'...
MN 95:
"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities..."
Awareness must be defined according to its content; this is why contact involves vinnana no matter what, but that vinnana isn't the same from one percept to the next. What strings them together is memory, associations... sankhara, in other words. And this is based on avijja, to start, so the question is about the eradication of avijja - the very point of the Dhamma, but here the problem is being seen with some clarity, rather than taken as a doctrinal point.
Keep on a-truckin'...
MN 95:
"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities..."
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: Taking awareness as self
I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.tiltbillings wrote:Do the practice. Awareness arises and falls dependent upon conditions. What does that make it?m0rl0ck wrote:This is a completely sincere question, if this awareness is not self, what is it?tiltbillings wrote: Its nature will reveal itself as your practice matures and deepens.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
- tiltbillings
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Re: Taking awareness as self
I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
- Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Taking awareness as self
Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?tiltbillings wrote:I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
- Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Taking awareness as self
You do not know the answer to this question?m0rl0ck wrote:Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?tiltbillings wrote:I am talking about what the Buddha taught. Are you talking about some "awareness" other than viññāna? If so, does it feel? Does it perceive? Is it aware?m0rl0ck wrote: I dont think we are talking about the same thing. Thank you tho.
You can assume whatever self you wish, but it come down to this, as the Buddha clearly said:
- Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. -- SN III 46.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Goofaholix
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Re: Taking awareness as self
Vinnana.m0rl0ck wrote: Im not assuming a self, im just wondering what opinions are on that which notices. For instance, what notices awareness rising and falling as you say?
It's a process not a thing.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Taking awareness as self
Thanks, thats helpful.Goofaholix wrote: Vinnana.
It's a process not a thing.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig