Pali Term: Sati

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badscooter
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by badscooter »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Billymac,

On this forum, and particularly in the Pali terms threads, I appreciate clear arguments with precise Pali glosses and references from people who know at least some Pali.
I understand :) And I think your quite good with gathering Pali glosses and references. However, once a word is translated into another language, it can be renamed again in that new language without losing meaning. It all depends on the language and its usages. English is a perfect example of a language which one can say the same thing in many different ways.
If you don't believe that the Tipitaka contains the actual words used by the Buddha, then we don't have a basis for meaningful discussion
I don't see how that would not be basis for discussion. Do I think "every single word" came exactly as the buddha said it? No. Do I believe the Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitika? Yes.
, and I would ask you not to post in this thread.
I believe I'm staying within the guidelines of the thread. But I wont keep posting.

I never said you had to agree with me :)
as the Buddha said:
“Monk, it’s as if there were a man who had never seen a riddle tree (lit. ‘What is this’ – tree). He would go to another man who had seen one and, on arrival, would say to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?”
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is black, my good man, like a burnt stump.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like. (Tena kho pana, bhikkhu, samayena tādisovassa kiṃsuko yathāpi tassa purisassa dassanaṃ)
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with the other man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is red, my good man, like a lump of meat.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree is stripped of its bark, my good man, and has burst pods, like an acacia tree.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man’s answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, ‘What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?’
“The other would say, ‘A riddle tree has thick foliage, my good man, and gives a dense shade, like a banyan.’ For at the time he saw it, that’s what the riddle tree was like.
“In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused (yathā yathā adhimuttānaṃ) when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered.""
for the thread :smile:
Some other definitions of sati:
Sati (f.) [Vedic smṛti: see etym. under sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D i.180; ii.292; Miln 77 — 80; intentness of mind, wakefulness of mind, mindfulness, alertness, lucidity of mind, self — possession, conscience, self — consciousness D i.19; iii.31, 49, 213, 230, 270 sq.; A i.95; Dhs 14; Nd1 7; Tikp 61; VbhA 91; DhsA 121; Miln 37; etc. [link]

and under sarati we find:

Sarati2 [smṛ, cp. smṛti=sati; Dhtp 248 "cintā"; Lat memor, memoria=memory; Gr. me/rimna care, ma/rtu witness, martyr; Goth. maúrnan=E. mourn to care, etc.] to remember D ii.234; Vin i.28; ii.79; J ii.29. …. — Caus. sāreti to remind Vin ii.3 sq., 276; iii.221; sārayamāna, reminding J i.50; ppr. pass. sāriyamāna Vin iii.221; w. acc. D ii.234; w. gen. Dh 324; J vi.496; with foll. fut. II. (in ˚tā) Vinii.125, 4; iii.44, 9, etc. — Caus. II. sarāpeti Vin iii.44; Miln 37 (with double acc.), 79. [link]

One teachers perspective
"I would translate sati as “attentive awareness,” but would quickly point out that that expression is only one of the aspects of sati, “paying attention in order to remember and to recollect, to reflect later” being another aspect. From the perspective of practice, “mental noting” is another aspect of sati, as well."

Another
“In the mirror of Memory” edited by Janet Gyatso (esp. Collette Cox’ article), a wonderful compilation of all kinds of Indian sources on the connection between sati

"…Mindfulness is chosen here not, as in many cases, to avoid confusion with the psychological function of smrti as memory, but precisely for the opposite reason; that is, to indicate at the outset what this chapter will illustrate: that the contexts for the operation of smrti suggested by the term mindfulness actually encompass the psychological functions of memory as they were understood within Indian Buddhism."

may all be well
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Billymac29 wrote: I believe I'm staying within the guidelines of the thread. But I wont keep posting.
You can post in this thread. Your posts were not out of line.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Billymac,
Billymac29 wrote:I understand :) And I think your quite good with gathering Pali glosses and references. However, once a word is translated into another language, it can be renamed again in that new language without losing meaning. It all depends on the language and its usages. English is a perfect example of a language which one can say the same thing in many different ways.
That's why the context is important - since it clarifies the exact meaning of the word. It's Pali passages which provide such context for Pali words.
I don't see how that would not be basis for discussion. Do I think "every single word" came exactly as the buddha said it? No. Do I believe the Buddha's teachings are in the Tipitika? Yes.
OK, you can post in this thread :)
“In the mirror of Memory” edited by Janet Gyatso (esp. Collette Cox’ article), a wonderful compilation of all kinds of Indian sources on the connection between sati

"…Mindfulness is chosen here not, as in many cases, to avoid confusion with the psychological function of smrti as memory, but precisely for the opposite reason; that is, to indicate at the outset what this chapter will illustrate: that the contexts for the operation of smrti suggested by the term mindfulness actually encompass the psychological functions of memory as they were understood within Indian Buddhism."
Thank you, that's quite interesting.

Link to the article by Collet Cox "Mindfulness and Memory: The Scope of Smrti from Early Buddhism to Sarvastivadin Abhidharma":
http://books.google.com.ua/books?id=SbI ... 7&lpg=PA67" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Collet Cox brings attention to the refrain from the Kayagatasati sutta:

Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati, sannisīdati, ekodi hoti, samādhiyati. Evampi bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagataṃ satiṃ bhāveti.

And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and to the similar passage from Dantabhumi sutta:

So ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahāya cetaso upakkilese paññāya dubbalikaraṇe kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Citte cittānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ. Seyyathāpi aggivessana, hatthidamako mahantaṃ thambhaṃ paṭhaviyaṃ nikhaṇitvā āraññakassa nāgassa gīvāyaṃ upanibandhati. Āraññakānañceva sīlānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, āraññakānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, āraññakānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gāmante abhiramāpanāya, manussakantesu sīlesu sampādanāya1 evameva kho aggivessana, ariyasāvakassa ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā cetaso upanibandhanā honti. Gehasitānañceva sīlānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gehasitānañceva sarasaṅkappānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, gehasitānañceva darathakilamathapariḷāhānaṃ abhinimmadanāya, ñāyassa adhigamāya nibbānassa sacchikiriyāya.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.128" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

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Venerable Sujato states in A History of Mindfulness
....
" The classic description here is the account of the Bodhisatta’s austerities. His striving was most terrible: ‘crushing mind with mind’, doing the ‘breath- less jhāna’ until he felt as if his head was being pierced with a sword or crushed with a leather strap. But he could not make any progress. Why?

‘My energy was roused up and unflagging, my mindfulness was established and unconfused, but my body was afflicted and not tran- quil because I was exhausted by the painful striving. But such painful feeling as arose in me did not invade my mind and remain.’59
The Mūlasarvāstivāda account available in Sanskrit confirms that the Bodhisatta practiced mindfulness during his period of striving.60 Here, ‘mindfulness’ is obviously used in the sense of ‘present moment awareness’ rather than ‘memory’. This is confirmed in the following passage:
‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61
with metta
:anjali:
"whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon will be the inclination of one's mind"
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Hi Billymac,
Billymac29 wrote:‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61
Thank you for another example of remembrance, in this case, of non-harming.

This reminds me of another sutta, with other things to remember:

‘‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyyaṃ....
‘‘Kathañca, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti? ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ābhisamācārikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aparipūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ paripūressāmi, paripūraṃ vā ādibrahmacariyikaṃ sikkhaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti asamavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ paññāya samavekkhissāmi, samavekkhitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. ‘Iti aphusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ vimuttiyā phusissāmi, phusitaṃ vā dhammaṃ tattha tattha paññāya anuggahessāmī’ti – ajjhattaṃyeva sati sūpaṭṭhitā hoti. Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, satādhipateyyaṃ hoti. ‘Sikkhānisaṃsamidaṃ, bhikkhave, brahmacariyaṃ vussati paññuttaraṃ vimuttisāraṃ satādhipateyya’nti, iti yaṃ taṃ vuttaṃ idametaṃ paṭicca vutta’’nti.

“This holy life is lived… with mindfulness as its governing principle.…
And how is mindfulness the governing principle? The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to good conduct that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to good conduct that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will make complete any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is not yet complete, or I will protect with discernment any training with regard to the basics of the holy life that is complete’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will scrutinize with discernment any Dhamma that is not yet scrutinized, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been scrutinized’ is well-established right within. The mindfulness that ‘I will touch through release any Dhamma that is not yet touched, or I will protect with discernment any Dhamma that has been touched’ is well-established right within.
“This is how mindfulness is the governing principle.”

— AN 4:245

Metta,
Dmytro
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Dmytro wrote:Hi Billymac,
Billymac29 wrote:‘Such was my scrupulousness, Sāriputta, that I was always mindful in stepping forwards and stepping backwards. I was full of pity even for [the beings in] a drop of water, thinking: “Let me not hurt the tiny creatures in the crevices of the ground.” ’61
Thank you for another example of remembrance, in this case, of non-harming.
In other words, an example of "remembrance" meaning being in the present moment.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Assaji »

Another good example of remembrance:

150. Mettaṃ ca sabbalokasmiṃ mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ
Uddhaṃ adho ca tiriyañca asambādhaṃ averaṃ asapattaṃ

151. Tiṭṭhaṃ caraṃ nisinno vā sayāno vā yāvatassa vigatamiddho
Etaṃ satiṃ adhiṭṭheyya brahmametaṃ vihāraṃ idhamāhu

With good will for the entire cosmos,
cultivate a limitless heart:
Above, below, & all around,
unobstructed, without enmity or hate.
Whether standing, walking,
sitting, or lying down,
as long as one is alert,
one should be resolved on this mindfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by mirco »

Dmytro wrote:Another good example of remembrance:
150. Mettaṃ ca sabbalokasmiṃ mānasaṃ bhāvaye aparimānaṃ Uddhaṃ adho ca tiriyañca asambādhaṃ averaṃ asapattaṃ 151. Tiṭṭhaṃ caraṃ nisinno vā sayāno vā yāvatassa vigatamiddho Etaṃ satiṃ adhiṭṭheyya brahmametaṃ vihāraṃ idhamāhu

With good will for the entire cosmos, cultivate a limitless heart: Above, below, & all around, unobstructed, without enmity or hate. Whether standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, as long as one is alert, one should be resolved on this remembrance.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe the best one.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

I have already debunked this argument: it is not because you can replace mindfulness by remembrance everywhere that the latter gives the correct meaning.

In every sentence where the word car occurs, you can replace it by 'vehicle', but that does not mean that the latter gives the correct meaning.

What to do?
:shrug:
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JhanaStream
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by JhanaStream »

Sekha wrote:I have already debunked this argument
Sekha

In my understanding, I see little ground, if any, to dispute Dymtro. 'Sati' is rememberance, recollection or mental preoccupation. In respect to meditation, particularly Anapanasati, it is to keep the mind preoccupied with each in & out breathing & the other internal sense objects that come into awareness is association with in & out breathing, such as the physical body, feelings, the quality of the citta (mind) & Dhamma (truth). Or in respect to the framework Satipatthana, it is to keep the mind pre-occupied with body, feelings, mind & dhamma (rather than have the mind pre-occupied with other activities, such as sex, drugs and rock-&-roll).

However, when a practitioner is not meditating, sati also serves to keep the mind pre-occupied with whatever dhamma is relevent to the situation, such as right thought, right speech, right action, right livehood, etc. Sati even keeps the mind free from 'self-view' & attachment when engaging in internet Dhamma discussion.

In summary, my understanding is sati is to keep in the mind whatever tasks, goals, knowledges, etc, are required for dhamma practise. Even, if one is not formally practising dhamma, such as crossing a busy road, sati is keeping watch on the traffic (rather than keeping watch on in & out breathing or entering the 2nd jhana).

In my opinion, the Mahavihara commentaries correctly refer to sati as the state of non-fading; not-forgetting; maintaining in mind; as is correctly described in MN 117.

:candle:
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

I kind of agree with rendering it as 'the act of keeping in the mind'. B. Analayo proposes also 'presence of/in the mind'. But the former rendering has this drawback that the verb 'to keep' is transitive, so it calls for an object which is not present, as sati is an abstract concept that does not refer to a particular object (unless for example in anapanassati). So 'presence of/in the mind' seems to be a better rendering.

But there is a great difference in English between remembrance and awareness/mindfulness. If one is to hold on tenaciously to the former, the problem is that it may induce confusion for practitioners. Remembrance is directed to the present perception of a 'past object' (instructions for example), whereas awareness is directed to phenomena happening in the present moment.

The most advanced meditation teachers I know of all take sati in the sense of awareness/mindfulness. I don't see any reason to consider that they are all mistaken.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by JhanaStream »

Sekha wrote: Remembrance is directed to the present perception of a 'past object' (instructions for example), whereas awareness is directed to phenomena happening in the present moment.

The most advanced meditation teachers I know of all take sati in the sense of awareness/mindfulness. I don't see any reason to consider that they are all mistaken
Sekha

Imho, your 2nd point is irrelevent because only an advanced meditation practitioner can judge whether a teacher is advanced.

As for awareness directed towards phenomena happening in the present moment, in my experience, this is definitely not sati. In my experience, MN 117 offers the most accurate description of sati for the advanced meditator. Here, sati is to keep right view in the mind, which means to keep the mind free of craving, following the right view set forth in the Four Noble Truths.

By nature (rather than by intent), the mind is consciousness. It is not required of the mind to direct awareness towards certain phenomena. When the mind is free from craving, free from hindrances, the in & out breathing naturally arises as the meditation object. Then calming of the breathing will naturally arise; then jhana will naturally arise, etc, without any need to direct awareness towards certain phenomena. Have you not read SN 48.10, where Lord Buddha instructs the noble disciple attains jhana simply by making relinquishment (vosagga) the object of meditation?

Here, using this advanced method, which accords with the heartwood of Buddha-Dhamma, sati is only required to keep the mind free from craving, following the Lord Buddha's instruction.

As for awareness is directed to phenomena, I have personally never come to this interpretation from reading sutta. The stock phrase for satipathana is he 'sees' the body in the body, etc. The stock phrase in Anapanasati is 'experiencing'. I have not read any specific techniques mentioned to bring about such 'seeing' & 'experiencing'.

Possibly you could quote some discourses for us that explicitly instruct the beginning practitioner (i.e., not those attained to the 4th jhana) to direct their awareness towards in & out breathing & other objects?

Thanks

:)
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by Sekha »

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote: The most advanced meditation teachers I know of all take sati in the sense of awareness/mindfulness. I don't see any reason to consider that they are all mistaken
Imho, your 2nd point is irrelevent because only an advanced meditation practitioner can judge whether a teacher is advanced.
I don't even want to argue on that. I have already given 2 names earlier: Goenka, the Pa Auk Sayadaw and I can add various other teachers like Sayadaw U Revata, Sayadaw U Puññananda who are respected teachers by both beginners and advanced meditators.
JhanaStream wrote: As for awareness directed towards phenomena happening in the present moment, in my experience, this is definitely not sati.
well then, we disagree. I am tired of addressing your baseless statements. Everyone knows what the definition of samma-sati is.
JhanaStream wrote: In my experience, MN 117 offers the most accurate description of sati for the advanced meditator.
if you say so..
JhanaStream wrote: It is not required of the mind to direct awareness towards certain phenomena.
I don't see any other word to qualify this as pure 'nonsense'.
JhanaStream wrote: Have you not read SN 48.10, where Lord Buddha instructs the noble disciple attains jhana simply by making relinquishment (vosagga) the object of meditation?
Please provide a proper quotation with Pali text.
JhanaStream wrote: As for awareness is directed to phenomena, I have personally never come to this interpretation from reading sutta.

so for you anapana, the breath, is not a phenomenon?
JhanaStream wrote: The stock phrase for satipathana is he 'sees' the body in the body, etc. The stock phrase in Anapanasati is 'experiencing'. I have not read any specific techniques mentioned to bring about such 'seeing' & 'experiencing'.

provide clear quotations.
JhanaStream wrote: Possibly you could quote some discourses for us that explicitly instruct the beginning practitioner (i.e., not those attained to the 4th jhana) to direct their awareness towards in & out breathing & other objects?
Yes, I can, and it is quite easy. But I am tired of arguing with you.
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Re: Pali Term: Sati

Post by tiltbillings »

Sekha wrote: But there is a great difference in English between remembrance and awareness/mindfulness. If one is to hold on tenaciously to the former, the problem is that it may induce confusion for practitioners. Remembrance is directed to the present perception of a 'past object' (instructions for example), whereas awareness is directed to phenomena happening in the present moment.
And, as you correctly indicate, this points to the problem of taking a purely lexical approach to understanding Pali terms, as is taken by the OP. Meaning is determined by usage and quite clearly sati -- as it is used in text the suttas and as been shown here repeatedly -- means more than mere "remembrance." But, alas, this will continues to be a matter of contention, it seems.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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