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Nonsense in Buddhism? - Dhamma Wheel

Nonsense in Buddhism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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David N. Snyder
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Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:39 pm

I found this video link over at Dharma Wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVB ... re=related

The bearded man does not make any points against the Suttas and just goes on a rant against Ajahn Brahm. To me, it sounds a lot like a Red Herring, Guilt-by-association, and maybe also a couple of other logical fallacies such as ad hominem, for using the b.s. term (how profound). :thinking:

Buddhism does not require acceptance of Ian Stevensons' works, nor any of the other statements made in the clips from Ajahn Brahm. They were just that monk's views and points. They might be weak, but don't say anything one way or the other as to the value or validity of Buddhism.
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clw_uk
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:45 pm

I agree with most of what he says but that is in relation to Ajahn Brahms statements and not Buddhadhamma so i agree with you as well

Most of what Ajahn Brahm said wasnt actually anything really to do with buddhadhamma but to do with his own personal opinions of the validity, effect and a need of reincarnation


I think the guy is criticising buddhism and not buddhadhamma, there is a comment that he left saying something a long those lines (from memory)


Metta
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:28 pm

Yeah he didn't actually say much or prove his point what is his alternative? I am my father???


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:36 pm


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby appicchato » Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:53 pm


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Individual » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:31 pm

LOL, the number of angry atheists on Youtube are hilarious.

Religion, religion, omg...!!! Religion is destroying teh world... Religion=war, religion=ignorance, religion=stupidity, religion=hatred... Gotta stop teh religionz!!!!

Despite the fact that he has a sick mentality and agenda, I have to agree with him. Is Ajahn Brahm subtly arguing for eternalism here? He uses Ian Stevenson's pseudoscientific reincarnation research to support Buddhist rebirth. Ajahn Brahm should simply say, "I don't know," when asked about rebirth, if he doesn't know. What knowledge of past lives does he actually have? And even if he had such knowledge, would this not contradict notself?

I laughed when the atheist guy said, "Hardly anything (passes to the next life)? Hardly anything? Bull****!" It seemed very Zen!
The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:31 pm

A couple of points.

1. In English reincarnation and rebirth are synonyms. I know some people in Buddhist circles use them to distinguish "non-Buddhist rebirth ideas" from "Buddhist rebirth", but translations of Tibetan texts, in particular, often use the word "reincarnation" where others would use the word "rebirth". Anyway, arguing over the meaning of English words is pointless...

2. Ajahn Brahm would be breaking a Vinaya rule to make open claims about his attainments, but in some of his talks you'll find very strong hints that he does believe that he has recalled past lives.

Of course, I have no idea whether he does or not, and I don't particularly care. I'm personally not particularly interested in trying to make Buddhism "scientific", I think it's a completely different paradigm, so in some ways I'd rather he didn't go on about Stevenson so much... But it's his Dhamma talk and he can say what he likes...

Metta
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:42 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Individual » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:29 am

Last edited by Individual on Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best things in life aren't things.


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retrofuturist
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:33 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Individual » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:42 am

The best things in life aren't things.


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retrofuturist
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:51 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:01 am

Is this thread becoming a rebirth debate?
- Peter


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:17 am


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:20 am


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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Guy » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:27 am

This poor man is more concerned about being correct about the pedantic details that he seems to have missed the point of the talk. Maybe Ajahn Brahm could have chosen more skilful words to talk about what is already a difficult topic and perhaps he could have talked about it from a more unbiased perspective, rather than a Buddhist perspective. However, he was talking in a temple to primarily a group of regularly attending Buddhists and for that reason I am sure that his talk was not primarily intended for hardline atheists. If he were talking about rebirth to atheists he would probably be more careful with his wording and instead of drawing from his own experience and the stories of trusted sources (such as other monks, who are generally considered amongst other Buddhists to be honest about what they say they have seen or heard, especially when you have known the person for a while) he would approach the topic from a more objective and rational approach (which in itself would be very difficult since the best kind of evidence is first hand experience). I am fairly certain that he only speaks in the manner he does, with a seemingly authoritative approach, because he is sincere about what he says and he understands that his live audience (ie. the people in the temple) all have meditative experience and many may have already recalled some of their own past life memories and so are not going to nit-pick everything and dissect it until it has lost all the originally intended meaning.

So what is the intended meaning? Well to me it is simple - our actions in this very life have consequences which implies personal responsibility, which seems to be the opposite of what the man in the video is suggesting that Ajahm Brahm is suggesting.

With Metta and much respect to Ajahn Brahm for trying to talk about what is difficult to talk about,

Guy
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:35 am

Oh, it's Kevin "Man of the Infinite" Solway is it? Yes, I do believe I have encountered him in cyberspace before.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:47 am

Kevin, aka Wanderer, has been carrying on about what's wrong with Buddhist beliefs for a while now (on the Internet).
It's tiresome. And a little strange.

I hadn't read about the misogyny before now, so that's news.


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tiltbillings
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:53 am


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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Nonsense in Buddhism?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:03 am




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