Dunnoo what your views are based on. I've read a few of his books and his blog and I think he is one of the more knowledgeable and informed western monks around.tiltbillings wrote:Sweep what under the rug? Bad scholarship, clumsy ham-handed criticism?Jhana4 wrote: Every time the "this is nothing people don't already know, can we sweep it under the rug?" . . . .
"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
I guess I wasn't clear. I totally agree that TBB is a book that needs to be written. Knowing the problem is one thing, but articulating it brings these issues to the surface where they can be observed and perhaps remedies applied.Jhana4 wrote:Mabye "many" but not enough. A similar point is brought up every time this thread is bumped up with a new post. I don't believe it. Every time the "this is nothing people don't already know, can we sweep it under the rug?" point is brought up at least a few very well studied people come forward to say that they had no idea those issues existed until they read "The Broken Buddha" by the Venerable S Dhammika.pilgrim wrote:TBB puts into words what many are already aware of.
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
(I deleted what I had written here. Whenever I write something critical of others, even when it's seems quite true (from my pov), I often later on feel like it would have been better to have left it unsaid. Sorry folks - another terminated post. I should change my nick to 'arnie'.)
'how often we regret saying too much, and how seldom too little.'
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
'how often we regret saying too much, and how seldom too little.'
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
Last edited by manas on Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
- retrofuturist
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Greetings,
Which then leads us back nicely to the issues discussed recently in..
Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10426" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
Which then leads us back nicely to the issues discussed recently in..
Richard Gombrich - Comfort or Challenge?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10426" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta,
Retro.
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Having knowledge and knowing how to use it are two different things. My views are based upon reading this wretched thing he wrote and what he said. I have given examples above of a couple serious problems that are indicative of what he says, and I'll be happy to discuss them at length, if you wish..pilgrim wrote:Dunnoo what your views are based on. I've read a few of his books and his blog and I think he is one of the more knowledgeable and informed western monks around.tiltbillings wrote:Sweep what under the rug? Bad scholarship, clumsy ham-handed criticism?Jhana4 wrote: Every time the "this is nothing people don't already know, can we sweep it under the rug?" . . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Precisely. A viable, sustainable, Western Buddhism which preserves the Dhamma and Discipline and the symbiotic relationship between lay and ordained that appears to have been a key design feature would certainly be nice to have.manasikara wrote: But if you take a look at us 'Westerners', some sections of our culture are already either watering down, or even seriously distorting, the Dhamma and Discipline. Not all, but some. So, as to the question, "what will Western Buddhism become?", one wouid hope, "maintaining, and representative of, the Dhamma and Discipline". If we don't do that, then in less than a hundred years, we could unravel what the Asians managed to preserve for over 2000 years!
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
Mike
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Sorry to recycle this ancient thread but I've only just read this book, and it made a big impression on me. I've discussed it with my old Professor who is an expert on this subject and he told me to read Justin McDaniels books on monastic education for a more optimistic outlook. We both agreed that Ven. Dhammika is clueless on the role of magic and the supernatural in Buddhism, and my old Professor also thought that he was rather naive and optimistic in his expectations. Even so all his criticisms are valid. Interestingly, these are criticisms that any educated Westerner could make. Partly this is due to our Christian background which emphasizes humility and service, and partly due to our exposure to other varieties of Buddhism, but mainly it is due to our scientific culture. Of course it doesn't go all one way, in respect of the supernatural we Westerners are infantile in our understanding. It may be that centuries of science and logic has gifted up with a sharper mindset but distanced us from these very subtle things. What is clear is that Western monks have an extremely important role to play in the future because if it somehow possible to apply the insights of our modern civilisation to the Dhamma, without sacrificing the magical, then the results would be truly wonderful.
- Sambojjhanga
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
I read the book awhile back myself. I'm actually surprised that anyone is actually surprised by any of this. Afterall, the Buddha himself spoke of such things.
You know what this is:
It's called SAMSARA!
There is NO organization on Earth, religious or otherwise, that isn't infected by this. Industry, the military, education, etc. As for "unserious" monks, that was one of the main reasons Ajaan Mun and the entire Thai Forest tradition STARTED! Read some of the biographies of the serious Thai Forest monks such as Maha Boowa, Ajaan Lee, Ajaan Fuang, Ajaan Chah, etc., etc. and pretty much to a man, they all stated that their first experiences in the Monastery's were with less-than-serious monks and that they had to seek out serious teachers of the Dhamma.
All institutions suffer from this. Lots of people get caught up in power, prestige and status. As has already been stated, look at the super-wealthy Christian preachers. Oh yeah, they are REALLY emulating Jesus...NOT! This doesn't mean that there aren't good and serious Christians, because there are. I was raised Catholic and actually met some very fine priests and nuns...I also met some real stinkers.
As far as scandals, I think that the Mahayana Tibetan's have had more than their share. Again, there are some wonderful Tibetan teachers...there are also some really serious sexual perverts and drunks in these groups ("crazy wisdom" be damned.) We cannot judge an entire group of people or religious teachings based on the misdeeds of a few.
Having said all this, there is ONE person that we can work on and one person ONLY: Ourselves. Whenever I read stories such as these, I just want to redouble my effort to get out of Samsara.
Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
You know what this is:
It's called SAMSARA!
There is NO organization on Earth, religious or otherwise, that isn't infected by this. Industry, the military, education, etc. As for "unserious" monks, that was one of the main reasons Ajaan Mun and the entire Thai Forest tradition STARTED! Read some of the biographies of the serious Thai Forest monks such as Maha Boowa, Ajaan Lee, Ajaan Fuang, Ajaan Chah, etc., etc. and pretty much to a man, they all stated that their first experiences in the Monastery's were with less-than-serious monks and that they had to seek out serious teachers of the Dhamma.
All institutions suffer from this. Lots of people get caught up in power, prestige and status. As has already been stated, look at the super-wealthy Christian preachers. Oh yeah, they are REALLY emulating Jesus...NOT! This doesn't mean that there aren't good and serious Christians, because there are. I was raised Catholic and actually met some very fine priests and nuns...I also met some real stinkers.
As far as scandals, I think that the Mahayana Tibetan's have had more than their share. Again, there are some wonderful Tibetan teachers...there are also some really serious sexual perverts and drunks in these groups ("crazy wisdom" be damned.) We cannot judge an entire group of people or religious teachings based on the misdeeds of a few.
Having said all this, there is ONE person that we can work on and one person ONLY: Ourselves. Whenever I read stories such as these, I just want to redouble my effort to get out of Samsara.
Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
I agree, and I would encourage anyone with an interest in Buddhism to spend some time with actual Buddhist practitioners and institutions, which will very quickly give some valuable insight into the positives and negatives that reside in any particular institution.Sambojjhanga wrote:I read the book awhile back myself. I'm actually surprised that anyone is actually surprised by any of this.
I actually think there are some useful lessons to be learned from encountering the a large variety of people/skills/seriousness that is apparent in almost any monastary (or lay institution). As Sambojjhanga says, Samsara is a messy place, and anyone who thinks that any institution is going to be an idyllic paradise hasn't been paying attention. But rather than being depressed and bitter about this, I think the constructive response is to learn from the good practice that also does exist almost everywhere. Sometimes not always where you first think, I've actually learned a lot from interacting with (particularly being served by) some of the elderly lay people at my local Wat...
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
Mike
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
For discussion about:
Mike
See this thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=14899" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Sambojjhanga wrote: Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
![Anjali :anjali:](./images/smilies/anjali.gif)
Mike
The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Hello all
I friend recently linked me this harrowing e book about the culture within the Pa Auk tradition, specifically those at the Na Uyana forest Aranya in Sri Lanka. It is very much in the same vein as 'Broken Buddha' by Venerable Dhammika, except it is a more specific account of matters, it is highly vitriolic, negative and without a single compliment towards those of whom it levels it's criticisms. The claims it levels are very serious indeed, and are worthy of investigation as to whether they are true or not.
I am not passing a great deal of judgement as I have my own practice to get on with, but I would recommend those who have interest in the Pa Auk system to give this book a read before embarking on a Pa Auk course or visiting a Pa Auk monastery.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/64780914/The- ... ning-Robes
The essence of the book is that a number of the monks in the Pa Auk system are parajika. Many have given up on meditation, despite still teaching it to lay students, very few have attained jhana, let alone stream entry, and moral corruption is common place. There are many problems with the text, one such problem is it's heavy use of anecdotes, the source of which appears to be unknown. Still one must question the authors motives, and ask - For what purpose would the author fabricate such accounts? I am not drawing conclusions either way. It is written in a strange manner, the writing style suggests the author is either proficient in English as a second language, either that or the work has been translated. It seems more like a rough draft than a finished piece. But nevertheless, some of the content is indeed disturbing.
Read the book yourself before passing judgment either way. It is a rather inflamatory account, so it might be wise to keep ones mindfulness at the ready when one undertakes a reading of it. I do think it is important however and worthy of a discussion of some sorts. For a time I ascribed to the Pa Auk system, and was even intending on going to Pa Auk forest monastery myself at one stage. I am now glad that decision was not undertaken.
On the basis of some of the reactions, I have decided to include a quote from one of my posts below, in the hopes that potential respondees might read it before reacting:
Jack
I friend recently linked me this harrowing e book about the culture within the Pa Auk tradition, specifically those at the Na Uyana forest Aranya in Sri Lanka. It is very much in the same vein as 'Broken Buddha' by Venerable Dhammika, except it is a more specific account of matters, it is highly vitriolic, negative and without a single compliment towards those of whom it levels it's criticisms. The claims it levels are very serious indeed, and are worthy of investigation as to whether they are true or not.
I am not passing a great deal of judgement as I have my own practice to get on with, but I would recommend those who have interest in the Pa Auk system to give this book a read before embarking on a Pa Auk course or visiting a Pa Auk monastery.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/64780914/The- ... ning-Robes
The essence of the book is that a number of the monks in the Pa Auk system are parajika. Many have given up on meditation, despite still teaching it to lay students, very few have attained jhana, let alone stream entry, and moral corruption is common place. There are many problems with the text, one such problem is it's heavy use of anecdotes, the source of which appears to be unknown. Still one must question the authors motives, and ask - For what purpose would the author fabricate such accounts? I am not drawing conclusions either way. It is written in a strange manner, the writing style suggests the author is either proficient in English as a second language, either that or the work has been translated. It seems more like a rough draft than a finished piece. But nevertheless, some of the content is indeed disturbing.
Read the book yourself before passing judgment either way. It is a rather inflamatory account, so it might be wise to keep ones mindfulness at the ready when one undertakes a reading of it. I do think it is important however and worthy of a discussion of some sorts. For a time I ascribed to the Pa Auk system, and was even intending on going to Pa Auk forest monastery myself at one stage. I am now glad that decision was not undertaken.
On the basis of some of the reactions, I have decided to include a quote from one of my posts below, in the hopes that potential respondees might read it before reacting:
with mettaIt is becoming all too obvious that nobody is willing to evaluate the criticisms presented within the book on any objective basis, but instead willing to chalk it all up to 'nobodies perfect' and 'the books biased' and 'it seems to be written maliciously'
Again, I come back to this point:
That does not discredit the very serious allegations made by the author of the book.
Disregarding the points the author has made on the basis of bias, or that the author (and myself for some odd reason) is merely fault finding, or that it's malicious, does NOT discredit the allegations made. We're not just talking about the odd monks not meditating here nor a monks liking of alternative medicine, we're talking about allegations of widespread parajika incidents. I'm not defending the author and what is a very fiery and negative book, in my eyes there appears to be a heavy negative emotional investment on the part of the author. But I'll say it one final time: That does not discredit the allegations made by the author. There have been plenty of grumpy, angst ridden biased individuals throughout history who have blown whistles, their whistle blowing needs to be evaluated on the content itself, not upon the author's feelings.
If you are going to level a fair criticism of the allegations, and I more than hope somebody does, it needs to be on a logical basis, not a knee-jerk reaction.
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Thanks BlackBird. Seems to me you can't go wrong by staying focused on the Suttas.
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
There is a history to this book. I don't know the details but I heard from some monks in Sri Lanka that the author later asked for forgiveness and obviously regretted expressing such negatively biased views in the book. One could probably find fault with any established tradition along similar lines.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)
Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
Which kind of monks Bhante? Is it just as possible they were making that up given that perhaps it was their group under the spot light? It is absolutely impossible to say anything with any degree of assuredness in this case, at least in my view. It is very murky water indeed. Given the level of corruption in Sri Lanka especially amongst the Sangha at large I tend to take everything I hear from that region of the world with a skeptical view.gavesako wrote:There is a history to this book. I don't know the details but I heard from some monks in Sri Lanka that the author later asked for forgiveness and obviously regretted expressing such negatively biased views in the book. One could probably find fault with any established tradition along similar lines.
This is not fault finding for fault findings sake. Clearly it is of value in exposing a highly regarded meditation monastery for what this book claims it is: a corrupt and dangerous institution. Those seeking to go there for retreat or ordination could have their lives put at risk, especially if they fall sick - If this book is to be believed.
Bias? Either the author made up all or some of these anecdotes - In which case he is lying, or he didn't, my question is: Why would he make it up? It would certainly take a very very very extraordinary imagination to come up with these events.gavesako wrote: expressing such negatively biased views in the book
Last edited by BlackBird on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- lyndon taylor
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes
I've tried reading this account it seems highly biased, almost made up, all you've proven is some monks in the country in Sri Lanka either don't trust or know a lot about western medicine.
By the way, most Therevada monks are not extensively taught or practise meditation, no one meditated for more than 5 minutes at my temple, when I was a monk, and they were very devout people, excessive meditation is more common in the west, meditation is just using your mind, and you can do that standing or sitting. Not that I don't recommend meditation, but not meditating does not make you bad or lazy buddhist, sleeping with students and doing drugs and alcohol, thats more what I think of when I think of bad buddhists.
By the way, most Therevada monks are not extensively taught or practise meditation, no one meditated for more than 5 minutes at my temple, when I was a monk, and they were very devout people, excessive meditation is more common in the west, meditation is just using your mind, and you can do that standing or sitting. Not that I don't recommend meditation, but not meditating does not make you bad or lazy buddhist, sleeping with students and doing drugs and alcohol, thats more what I think of when I think of bad buddhists.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John
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