What is this Numbness?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Yana
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What is this Numbness?

Post by Yana »

Hi everyone,

When practicing Anapanasati ,i wonder is it normal .. after i get up and go about to my daily routine,i feel like there is cloudy,sort of numbness to my perceptions/thoughts/feelings etc.

You see i always had the impression that meditation makes your senses sharper.Like you just know things or have xray eyes..But i seem to be experiencing the exact opposite.

Like my head feels a bit drowsy/numb/tranquilized.
I don't know if this is a good or bad thing ..i almost feel like my senses are shutting down or not functioning as sharp as it used too. To be honest i feel like i'm half sleeping or semi conscious.Not as bad as sleep walking though.but still..

Like i can sense my breathing clearly,my body,my movements, but everything else is sort of blurred out or zoomed out.

Just to give an example:

When i had an argument with my husband instead of going like..seriously psycho..i was still upset but for some reason i felt like i was too drugged up/tranqulized to get mad and even though i was upset my attention automatically directed itself to my body temperature rising, my breathing,my heart beat, and then i felt detached so there was a lack of reasons to get angry.

Normally if my senses were sharp like they used to be,and that happened i would take it to heart and think of all the bad things that has happened to me and retaliate like quick reflex,but this numbness seems to be slowing things down for me.I feel like a turtle.A blind and deaf turtle.
And sometimes i have to poke myself harder to feel..i used to be very sensitive to touch..now it's just :|

This numbness is like a cloud over my head keeping me from taking anything to heart.I have trouble focusing on my own senses let alone let any thing get to me...don't know if it's right,i could be wrong, but according to my observation, meditation doesn't make you sensitive it makes you Not Sensitive...???

My question is what is this numbness...???
Is it a good or bad thing...??
Have you experienced this...??
Does meditation make you less sensitive??

your thoughts... :candle:
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Cittasanto
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Cittasanto »

Could it be indifference?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by daverupa »

I found a similar result when I practiced anapanasati with an understanding that the third and fourth steps involved a deep breath-focus. Now, I read those anapanasati lines as referring to the calming of intention with respect to bodies, rather than intentionally calming the breath-body in and of itself.

This means that, rather than dissociation - which I would experience using the breath-body version and which sounds similar to the description here (I think of it as 'cotton brain') - I instead experience a certain detachment, which is of an altogether different tenor and which makes metta and karuna easier and more... dynamically fluid in the moment, which also helps to round out the bhavana.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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mikenz66
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Yana,

Sounds a lot like classic "sloth and topor" hindrance to me. It's the sort of thing I've experienced when my mindfulness has not been sharp enough and consequently energy and concentration get out of balance (i.e. too much concentration, too little energy).

We have discussed some suttas on these subjects recently:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14382" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

but it's probably more useful to consult a good teacher or mediation manual. Actually, what Dave recommends above is probably the sort of tuning that is required.

:anjali:
Mike
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DAWN
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by DAWN »

Hight concentration effect.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
Reductor
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Reductor »

You seem to be describing two things: indifference on one hand and muddled alertness on the other.

I don't think your indifference to the argument is all that bad, in itself. A muddled alertness is not good, however. Consider more carefully on how much the lack of alertness and your lack of volitility are connected. Whether or not your lack of volatility is due to muddled alertness or not, you can improve your alertness by thinking more in meditation.

WHAT! Did someone just say you should think more? Yes, yes I did.

Thinking a bit about your body and its state, as well as the state of your attention to that body, is an important anitidote to sloth and torpor (which you seem to be suffering, as Mike said). So long thinking is confined to the internal dynamics of your meditation/meditation-object then there isn't a problem with it. Once you've settled inwardly and your thoughts are consistently on topic, then they can be calmed a bit.

FYI: when I finish meditating my senses very sharp indeed, and I feel inwardly clarified in a way I don't during pre-meditation times.
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mikenz66
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by mikenz66 »

Some good advice there...

Further to my posts, Ajahn Brahm has some excellent advice about Hindrances in his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond.
The first five chapters are free:
http://ebookbrowse.com/ajahn-brahm-mind ... -d84597124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From Chapter 4:
The Third Hindrance—Sloth and Torpor
The third hindrance is sloth and torpor. I don’t need to describe it in
detail, because I’m sure we know it all too well through our experience
of meditation. We sit in meditation and don’t really know what we are
watching, whether it’s the present moment, silence, the breath, or what-
ever. This is because the mind is dull. It’s as if there are no lights turned
on inside. It’s all gray and blurry.

Making Peace with Sloth and Torpor
The most profound and effective way of overcoming sloth and torpor is
to make peace with the dullness and stop fighting it! When I was a young
monk in the forest monasteries in Thailand and became sleepy during the
3:15 a.m. sitting, I would struggle like hell to overpower the dullness. I
would usually fail. But when I did succeed in overcoming my sleepiness,
restlessness would replace it. So I would calm down the restlessness and
fall back into sloth and torpor. My meditation was like a pendulum
swinging between extremes and never finding the middle. It took many
years to understand what was going on.
...
:anjali:
Mike
Yana
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Yana »

Reductor wrote: you can improve your alertness by thinking more in meditation.

WHAT! Did someone just say you should think more? Yes, yes I did.

Thinking a bit about your body and its state, as well as the state of your attention to that body, is an important anitidote to sloth and torpor (which you seem to be suffering, as Mike said). So long thinking is confined to the internal dynamics of your meditation/meditation-object then there isn't a problem with it. Once you've settled inwardly and your thoughts are consistently on topic, then they can be calmed a bit.

FYI: when I finish meditating my senses very sharp indeed, and I feel inwardly clarified in a way I don't during pre-meditation times.
Hi Reductor,

Yes i think your right,i never "think" during my meditation.All i do is concentrate on the breathing until i'm almost in a state of trance.There's no thoughts no nothing.Not one single thought.And it does make me unnaturally calm but i think it also makes my cloudiness get worse.I will try your advice today..think about my breathing..hear myself think about the breathing..like ask myself this breath is long this is short...etc...when i do this breath i am calm when i do that breath i feel uneasy...etc..

I am practicing meditation alone and don't know any Buddhists offline so i try to be careful.I have read that you should contemplate the breath while you are meditating and the first thing i thought is...ehm..how is this possible..??...i always thought if my minds focused on breathing i can't do other things because i'll lose focus of the breathing but this is not true as i have tried it once..not true at all.You can do both especially if your thinking of the actual breathing you are focusing on.Its like dissecting the breath apart actually now that i think of it...i just didn't know what they meant..i thought you were supposed to experience a long or short breath and it's effects not hear yourself think about it...thinking and experiencing were two different things to me...

But thanks for clearing things up for me..i will try that today hopefully i won't get up feeling like i just had a hangover. :anjali:
Cittasanto wrote:Could it be indifference?
Hi Cittasanto,i can't really tell..i want to do things but i feel numb.I don't think it is indifference.Because if it were,i wouldn't want to do it in the first place. :anjali:
daverupa wrote:
I found a similar result when I practiced anapanasati with an understanding that the third and fourth steps involved a deep breath-focus. Now, I read those anapanasati lines as referring to the calming of intention with respect to bodies, rather than intentionally calming the breath-body in and of itself.

This means that, rather than dissociation - which I would experience using the breath-body version and which sounds similar to the description here (I think of it as 'cotton brain') - I instead experience a certain detachment, which is of an altogether different tenor and which makes metta and karuna easier and more... dynamically fluid in the moment, which also helps to round out the bhavana.

:heart:
Hi Dave,I'm sorry could you elaborate this for me i don't understand what you mean. :anjali:
mikenz66 wrote:too much concentration, too little energy
Hi Mikenz,yes that's how i feel like.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Yes, I've had a similar problem before. I felt stupid because when I read something my mind wasn't fluid enough to be agile in comprehension. It's as if it was stuck. I'd be interested to hear more answers to Yana's question as well as an opinion if my problem has the same causes and "cures" as Yana's.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Cittasanto
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Cittasanto »

Yana wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Could it be indifference?
Hi Cittasanto,i can't really tell..i want to do things but i feel numb.I don't think it is indifference.Because if it were,i wouldn't want to do it in the first place. :anjali:
yeap, that is how it manifested for me, but I was a little confused by your description unfortunately hence the shortness!
I would go with the sloth and torpor advise myself.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
daverupa
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by daverupa »

Yana wrote:All i do is concentrate on the breathing until i'm almost in a state of trance.
I, too, practiced in just such a way once upon a time. I named this "deep breath-focus" earlier. The trance-state is what I called "dissociation", and would result in "cotton-brain". Reading, social engagement - like being underwater, where the senses just don't function well.

So, I recommend that you re-consider the third and fourth steps of anapanasati; some consider that they ask us to focus on the breath and zero in, as above. I find that the instructions are asking us to relax bodily intention altogether, including the intention to "calm the breath" or to "experience the breath". The body mostly runs on autopilot - here, we're being asked to let the whole thing go, not wrangle it this way & that.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Yana
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Yana »

Modus.Ponens wrote:Yes, I've had a similar problem before. I felt stupid because when I read something my mind wasn't fluid enough to be agile in comprehension. It's as if it was stuck. I'd be interested to hear more answers to Yana's question as well as an opinion if my problem has the same causes and "cures" as Yana's.
YES that's it!! My mind's not fluid or agile or versatile...you know like i'm not as quick..It will be very interesting to get at the bottom of this..i don't think it's sloth or torpor because i am pretty energetic and very enthusiastic about meditating..i never get sleepy during meditation.. and have to remind myself not sit too long because i have to do other things..so the only reasonable explanation for me is my meditation technique..i must be doing something that makes my mind dull..
Cittasanto wrote:
Yana wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Could it be indifference?
Hi Cittasanto,i can't really tell..i want to do things but i feel numb.I don't think it is indifference.Because if it were,i wouldn't want to do it in the first place. :anjali:
yeap, that is how it manifested for me, but I was a little confused by your description unfortunately hence the shortness!
I would go with the sloth and torpor advise myself.
Hi,sorry for the confusing description but i don't know how else to explain it except to tell it as it is,and this is exactly what i experienced.it would be easy to pin down the problem if all it did was make my mind cloudy.Easy,Sloth and torpor.But if it also makes me super calm and detached which is a progress then ...i get confused. :(
daverupa wrote:
Yana wrote:All i do is concentrate on the breathing until i'm almost in a state of trance.
I, too, practiced in just such a way once upon a time. I named this "deep breath-focus" earlier. The trance-state is what I called "dissociation", and would result in "cotton-brain". Reading, social engagement - like being underwater, where the senses just don't function well.

So, I recommend that you re-consider the third and fourth steps of anapanasati; some consider that they ask us to focus on the breath and zero in, as above. I find that the instructions are asking us to relax bodily intention altogether, including the intention to "calm the breath" or to "experience the breath". The body mostly runs on autopilot - here, we're being asked to let the whole thing go, not wrangle it this way & that.

:heart:
Hi!..OMG! omg..! I get it!!!I get it!!!
I just tried that before i read this, so i'm soo happy to tell you this!i realized something! You know when you want to focus and concentrate on your long breaths,Sure it makes you calm!BUT did you realize something!!

I could pick up this subtle stress on my head or brain!!Like pressure!!It's subtle but i picked it up!It's like while trying to control your breathing with the intention of calming your body your actually applying pressure on your brain!And that's the exact spot that gives me these headaches/drowsiness/cloudy/cotton mind!

So the more i try hard to concentrate the more i am straining my brain.My body is calm due to my controlled long breathing affecting my body but my mind is stressed with pressure,there's an agitation present..And this explains why my body is calm but my mind isn't..it's like a magnifying glass i walk around seeing everything zoomed in and quite naturally it gives me a a headache.

So what i did was just breath naturally without trying to control anything..i don't control long or short breath.I am just "aware" of my breathing which is done on autopilot usually...and i realized something even if it is short breaths it changes into fine breath and immediately i felt the pressure lift up ..

So my conclusion is if we can learn to be aware of our breathing...short or long etc...in whatever condition it is ...IN THAT EXACT MOMENT..JUST AS IT IS...it will change to fine and your mind will be calm!

:anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Thank you for your insight Yana! :smile:
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Reductor
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by Reductor »

daverupa wrote: So, I recommend that you re-consider the third and fourth steps of anapanasati; some consider that they ask us to focus on the breath and zero in, as above. I find that the instructions are asking us to relax bodily intention altogether, including the intention to "calm the breath" or to "experience the breath". The body mostly runs on autopilot - here, we're being asked to let the whole thing go, not wrangle it this way & that.
I agree with you almost completely, except for the calming of intentions to "experience the breath." Unlike breathing, the "experiencing of the breath," in terms of attention to its quality, is not automatic. Especially in the beginning. In the beginning I'd say some intention must be fostered and maintained - in as much quantity as is necessary to put away all those intentions with the outside (this is where thinking more is helpful).

Once competing intentions and thoughts have been put away, then a very gradual calming of "experiencing" intentions is appropriate, along with a calming of all other intentions too (a long road, but I am certain you agree it is the right one).

Anyway, nice post.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: What is this Numbness?

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

I think these replies have probably answered everything but I'd like to just add that you might be stuck, so to speak, on the first two steps of Anapanasati (contemplating long, contemplating short) when you're actually too concentrated for them. Try going for steps three and four (experiencing the body, calming the body) and you might be able to balance that concentration with the newly generated mindfulness. And then if piti and sukha arise, you can move on to those!

Good luck!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

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