Anomalous Phenomena/"The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Anomalous Phenomena/"The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:23 pm

Split from:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2698&p=215382#p215382


To discuss Ven Dhammika's wrongness (or not) regarding "anomalous phenomena".
(mikenz66)

Sambojjhanga wrote:Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.


I've also experienced and seen some things that might be called very uncanny... but I'm still hesitant to explain them as supernatural in themselves, or magical events. I'd rather just to try share them in a way that is down-to-earth, using the terms of a framework that is acceptable, or at least within the context of an actual Dhamma practice; if that's not possible, I just allude to them in an indirect way, maybe in an appearance of using a metaphor for something... but only if I think that will be helpful to others.

I wouldn't even think of trying to share it directly with those who might've had the same experiences, especially if I had nothing in reserve to explain these in a way that is beneficial. I'm afraid that it will only reinforce whatever delusions they might have about it, or whatever mistaken interpretations there might be. After all... I don't think that these events in themselves really have anything to do with the liberation (especially of mind), anyway.

I think that if these people ended up becoming more attached to their own experiences as something real, or they even feel vindicated about it (heaven forbid), then they will only become more bounded up within themselves... and more difficult for us to have a real discussion of Dhamma with. They'd only look at others who don't have these same experiences (or don't look at them in the same way as they do) with contempt, even if only mildly. The dukkha (note that I didn't say "theirs") will only still continue, whenever there seems to be a disagreement... this is not liberation.

:anjali:
User avatar
beeblebrox
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Raksha » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:32 pm

Sambojjhanga wrote:I read the book awhile back myself. I'm actually surprised that anyone is actually surprised by any of this. Afterall, the Buddha himself spoke of such things.You know what this is:It's called SAMSARA!....
....Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.


I recently read a doctoral thesis by a German scholar which contained the following quote from Lord Buddha,
'All worldlings are insane.'
It is probably a brutally over-simplified translation, but I have found it to be quite a helpful mantra.
As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.
Raksha
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 11:30 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:41 pm

Raksha wrote:As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.


Why? To me this sounds like convenient excuse to show non-existent powers.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:10 am

Alex123 wrote:
Raksha wrote:As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.


Why? To me this sounds like convenient excuse to show non-existent powers.

there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby alan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:17 am

S. Dhammika's essay is perfectly rational, and admirably honest. I applaud him for speaking the truth.
alan
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Yana » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:10 am

beeblebrox wrote:
Sambojjhanga wrote:Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.


I've also experienced and seen some things that might be called very uncanny... but I'm still hesitant to explain them as supernatural in themselves, or magical events. I'd rather just to try share them in a way that is down-to-earth, using the terms of a framework that is acceptable, or at least within the context of an actual Dhamma practice; if that's not possible, I just allude to them in an indirect way, maybe in an appearance of using a metaphor for something... but only if I think that will be helpful to others.

I wouldn't even think of trying to share it directly with those who might've had the same experiences, especially if I had nothing in reserve to explain these in a way that is beneficial. I'm afraid that it will only reinforce whatever delusions they might have about it, or whatever mistaken interpretations there might be. After all... I don't think that these events in themselves really have anything to do with the liberation (especially of mind), anyway.

I think that if these people ended up becoming more attached to their own experiences as something real, or they even feel vindicated about it (heaven forbid), then they will only become more bounded up within themselves... and more difficult for us to have a real discussion of Dhamma with. They'd only look at others who don't have these same experiences (or don't look at them in the same way as they do) with contempt, even if only mildly. The dukkha (note that I didn't say "theirs") will only still continue, whenever there seems to be a disagreement... this is not liberation.

:anjali:


hi,

i never understood people's mentality..people either think your crazy or don't believe you..the stupid thing is a lot of people experience it..yet every one are either living in denial or delusion.You either don't accept it occurs at all or are completely deluded by it claiming supernatural powers over this and that. Always the two extremes.Nobody ever accepts it as just a normal part of existence.When i am walking do i have to tell people that i am walking..is it so strange that i am walking..am i inflating my ego by walking...that's just the same with these supernatural occurrences..what's the big deal about it..The sixth sense, the mind has a much larger scope than our five senses..i would be ...frankly... "Surprised" if we didn't experience anything which most people deem "abnormal" just because it cannot be fully registered by the five senses..now i understand that you can't go around filling people's heads with your experiences but this shouldn't come from any other reason except Not to Mislead them and Not because you TOO are "denying it"..i think we should judge everything as skillfull or unskillfull by whether it will lead us to Nibbanna or not,not because it's seems abnormal and therefore cannot exist.Supernatural phenomenons at the end of the day it's just another phenomenon.And no i certainly don't believe anyone,not even a monk, who tells me they don't exist,Not because i am one of "those" deluded ones or i am trying to inflate my ego,really has it ever occurred to anyone that some people say it just for the simple fact that they have experienced it...like simple as that.

I also don't think you can undermine the role of magic or the supernatural in people's beliefs.Maybe for the trained mind we can realize it's normality,note it and leave it as it is on our quest to enlightenment but for the untrained mind it plays an important role.. man has been driven by fear and in his ignorance looked upon the supernatural since ancient times..upon these beliefs societies,kingdoms,and religions etc were founded upon.So to throw it all away means throwing away your chance of understanding just why groups of people behave the way they do.Which in many ways could serve as a tool for self reflection.

:anjali:
Life is preparing for Death
Yana
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:45 am

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby alan » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:25 am

That was a whole bunch of words put together in a long post. But I don't know what it means.
What was your point?
alan
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Yana » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:46 am

well..i typed it in plain English so..maybe read the context or use a dictionary..it helps.
Life is preparing for Death
Yana
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:45 am

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:17 am

alan wrote:That was a whole bunch of words put together in a long post. But I don't know what it means.
What was your point?

I think the point, which for the record I didn't have much trouble understanding, was that we often treat the so-called "supernatural" elements of spiritual practice as either things to brag about or hushed secrets that we're afraid to admit to, when in reality they are simply functions of the mind that should be acknowledged and let go of like all other physical or mental functions.

At least that was my translation of a post that didn't seem to require a translation (or a snarky rebuttal like you offered).
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Yana » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:28 am

Hi Alan,

Lonesome yoghurts right in expressing my point.I'm sorry but after typing that much and in plain English i just didn't feel like elaborating it even more especially if i know your not interested and it does show..If you want a shorter version to know what the whole point is just read Lonesome yoghurts explanation.. :anjali: i'm also sorry if i was on the defensive. Please accept my apology :anjali:
Life is preparing for Death
Yana
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:45 am

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Yana wrote:I also don't think you can undermine the role of magic or the supernatural in people's beliefs.Maybe for the trained mind we can realize it's normality,note it and leave it as it is on our quest to enlightenment but for the untrained mind it plays an important role.. man has been driven by fear and in his ignorance looked upon the supernatural since ancient times..upon these beliefs societies,kingdoms,and religions etc were founded upon.So to throw it all away means throwing away your chance of understanding just why groups of people behave the way they do.Which in many ways could serve as a tool for self reflection.


I think you're right. Master Linji actually put that to an interesting use (he lived in the year 800's)... he said that to walk on the earth is much more miraculous compared to walking on the water, or in the air.

To view the Dhamma as a teaching that is made up entirely of ordinary things, which leads to Nibbana... I think that will be quite a feat. To try to see it otherwise, I think that will be not to give it enough credit.

:anjali:
User avatar
beeblebrox
 
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.


And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:14 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.


And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.


I'am sorry for this offtopic. Just to say thanks for your traduction of word dukkha like imperfection, it seems more exactly then suffering.

Спасибо большое Алекс! Уже давно искал нужное слово для дуккхи. :anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
User avatar
DAWN
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:51 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.


And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.

but it does put a dampener on the get-out clauses expressed.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Alex123 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:10 pm

Cittasanto wrote:And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.

but it does put a dampener on the get-out clauses expressed.[/quote]

There was Randi's challenge that offered 1 million dollars reward...

Why can't people who possess super powers show them to more people and put materialist worldview into doubt?
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:04 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Why can't people who possess super powers show them to more people and put materialist worldview into doubt?


Because peoples dont want to believ that this world is have absolute plasticity.
Even a very simple "superpower" like "thought are material", is very hard to make accept even when you show that it works, them tell "Oh no, it's mistake, it's a chance etc". But now i see more and more peoples who start to see it by them selves, them become awere about fenomenas in their life, and see that the mouvement of their life is in perfect correlation with their mind, so there is much more peoples who speaks about their "super power" experiances.
Actualy there is no any super power, it absolutely normal. Of corse in the forld where nobody knows how drive a car, when some one drive it, them skream "superpower !!!" No! It's just some quantum law! When you drop a ball, it's falling, whn you use superposition - it works!

Quantum law, and Buddha to, tell us that is consciosness that determinate reality, so little bit by little bit, peoples will accept this, will know that ALL IS POSSIBLE, so when doubt will disapear, peoples will live their dreams here and now.

If i will tell you that i have just to think about any fenomena and i am 100% sure that it will heppens tomorow or even next hour, do you will believ me? NO. Do you will try to do it? Perharps. Will you believ that your thought will apear in your life? No. So will it heppens? No.

I dont know if you read Bible, New Testament, but every time when Jesus will heal someone, he ask him, do you believ me? And when this person is healed, Jesus say that it's because you believ.

Quantum physic works when you know that it works.
World is absolutely anicca, absolutely impermanent, have absolute plasticity, platicity is his nature. Have absolute plasticity dont mean, a little bit, or some times, or any think else, but absolutely means ABSOLUTELY.

It's the realm of Nimmānaratī, The world of devas "delighting in their creations", and Paranimmita-vasavatti, The heaven of devas "with power over (others') creations".
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
User avatar
DAWN
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:16 pm

hi Alex, dawn.
if someone gives any excuse for why they wouldn't demonstrate such abilities they claim to have I would say because they can not! they are quite literally speaking out of the wrong orifice.

Quantum physics does not deal with the mind or have a philosophy of mind to my knowledge and if I remember correctly there are some scientists about who are far better acquainted with the actual subject who can correct any misunderstanding being thrown about.

If there was enough evidence for something being true there may be doubters (such as young earth or flat earth believers) but the evidence would speak for itself. what people want to believe is not the point of actual evidence, the point of evidence if proof, to show something is. there are those who hate evolution and try to show it didn't happen through pseudo-science doesn't make it any less true!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby DAWN » Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:59 am

Cittasanto wrote:Quantum physics does not deal with the mind or have a philosophy of mind to my knowledge and if I remember correctly there are some scientists about who are far better acquainted with the actual subject who can correct any misunderstanding being thrown about.


It deal with the mind. They call it "specator/observer",is the speactator who determinate the state of systhem.

There is little vidio obout one quantum experiance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0v-cvvyc-M

Quantum superposition is a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics. It holds that a physical system—such as an electron—exists partly in all its particular, theoretically possible states (or, configuration of its properties) simultaneously; but, when measured, it gives a result corresponding to only one of the possible configurations (as described in interpretation of quantum mechanics)

It works. It's 100%. I have use superposition about 10 years, and i will youse it rest of my life. When you know that somethink heppens, it heppens. when you doubt, you broke it.
It's pure kamma, dirctly visible, here and now. If you want i can give some, or many exemples in my life. Actualy all my life is the fruit of my imagination, all that i have, i thought about it before.

Is the first Verse in Dhammapada, the very first.

Verse 1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made. If one speaks or acts with an evil mind, 'dukkha' 3 follows him just as the wheel follows the hoofprint of the ox that draws the cart.

Why it works?
Because dhammas are conditioned. To meet some dhamma, there must be a condition for it. This condition is your mind. Realm is in ABSOLUTE harmony, where 1=1, so when in your mind you have one dhamma, this dhamma appears in your life to keep the harmony. One of quality of materialised thought is that this dhamma is given to you, this dhamma comes to you, you dont have to do any effort to obtain it, it's just given.

Pure mirrow.
Humans are like a little kitty who dont understand that he play with his own reflect in mirrow.
To see it, you have to be very awere, and take a note about all mouvement of your mind and compare it with the mouvement of your life. When you move your arm, in mirrow your arm move to. Is simple.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
User avatar
DAWN
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby James the Giant » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:22 am

Sweet. Now, predict my lotto numbers, or alter a finely balanced scale in a sealed box, or change the rate of particle decay in a radioactive sample... and I'll even believe you.
Then,
saturated with joy,
you will put an end to suffering and stress.
SN 9.11
User avatar
James the Giant
 
Posts: 785
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:41 am

Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:04 am

Dawn
I have seen the experiment before, but that doesn't equate to what you are saying.
as James says
James the Giant wrote:Sweet. Now, predict my lotto numbers, or alter a finely balanced scale in a sealed box, or change the rate of particle decay in a radioactive sample... and I'll even believe you.


You can put things down to people not wanting to believe but that is an excuse, and gibberish unless you can definitively show under measurable circumstances.

Bbut also on a very short search the reason (footnote 19 below) is explained but this is just from March 2007.
skeptic.com wrote:“Quantum physics really begins to point to [The Secret],” says a proponent of The Law of Attraction. “It says that you can’t have universe without mind entering into it. The mind is actually shaping the very thing that is being perceived.”18 Here, then, we have an authority on the subject telling us that our minds create reality. First, however, it seems obvious that a universe without sentient minds perceiving it is entirely possible, given that this was the story on Earth for the first 13 billion years. Second, it would seem that this particular proponent of The Law of Attraction is using an understanding of quantum physics based more on the questions that Schrödinger was trying to answer, rather than on the answers themselves. Does the mind of the observer truly shape reality as claimed? After all it is true that, at the quantum level, a scientist has great difficulty recording and measuring particles and their interactions without changing the results of the investigation. Is this because the scientist’s mind is influencing the experiment? Is it because the scientist perceived the experiment and, as a result of perceiving, changed the results? No. The answer is far more mundane. To put it in crudely simplistic terms, as soon as the scientist switches on the light to see what’s going on, other particles, like photons, get in the way. It is the photons that are responsible for messing up the results, not the thoughts of the experimenter.19 This explanation has the obvious disadvantage of being extremely boring and must be ruled out on the basis that it doesn’t support the “create your own reality” claim.

footnotes wrote:18 -
Alan Wolf, The Secret DVD.

19 -
“The Secreteers are alluding, obliquely, to the collapse of a wave function when items in a quantum entangled state are observed. There is no doubt that unexpected results have been surprising physicists for a hundred years, when it comes to the very small, and that it is fiendishly difficult to measure interactions between elementary particles because the measuring apparatus has to be taken into account. However, it is by no means clear that the collapse of a wave function in anything more than a convenient mathematical metaphor for something which we can explain with equations, but not with words (although David Z. Albert does a creditable job of trying in Quantum Mechanics and Experience. Cambridge Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1992). Furthermore, the leap from being able to influence an electron going through one of two slits to being able to influence an entire mail-order universe is unquantifiably vast. Surprising effects that work reliably well at the very small (such as electron tunneling, the foundation of semiconductors) utterly fail to work at the very large (such as BMW tunneling, in which a fully-formed BMW disappears from the factory and appears in your driveway, merely because you asserted that you wanted one).” Steve Hansen Smythe, from private email correspondence.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5844
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Next

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests