Anomalous Phenomena/"The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
beeblebrox
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Anomalous Phenomena/"The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by beeblebrox »

Split from:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 82#p215382" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


To discuss Ven Dhammika's wrongness (or not) regarding "anomalous phenomena".
(mikenz66)
Sambojjhanga wrote: Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
I've also experienced and seen some things that might be called very uncanny... but I'm still hesitant to explain them as supernatural in themselves, or magical events. I'd rather just to try share them in a way that is down-to-earth, using the terms of a framework that is acceptable, or at least within the context of an actual Dhamma practice; if that's not possible, I just allude to them in an indirect way, maybe in an appearance of using a metaphor for something... but only if I think that will be helpful to others.

I wouldn't even think of trying to share it directly with those who might've had the same experiences, especially if I had nothing in reserve to explain these in a way that is beneficial. I'm afraid that it will only reinforce whatever delusions they might have about it, or whatever mistaken interpretations there might be. After all... I don't think that these events in themselves really have anything to do with the liberation (especially of mind), anyway.

I think that if these people ended up becoming more attached to their own experiences as something real, or they even feel vindicated about it (heaven forbid), then they will only become more bounded up within themselves... and more difficult for us to have a real discussion of Dhamma with. They'd only look at others who don't have these same experiences (or don't look at them in the same way as they do) with contempt, even if only mildly. The dukkha (note that I didn't say "theirs") will only still continue, whenever there seems to be a disagreement... this is not liberation.

:anjali:
Raksha
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Raksha »

Sambojjhanga wrote:I read the book awhile back myself. I'm actually surprised that anyone is actually surprised by any of this. Afterall, the Buddha himself spoke of such things.You know what this is:It's called SAMSARA!....
....Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
I recently read a doctoral thesis by a German scholar which contained the following quote from Lord Buddha,
'All worldlings are insane.'
It is probably a brutally over-simplified translation, but I have found it to be quite a helpful mantra.
As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.
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Alex123
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Alex123 »

Raksha wrote:As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.
Why? To me this sounds like convenient excuse to show non-existent powers.
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Cittasanto
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Cittasanto »

Alex123 wrote:
Raksha wrote:As for supernatural experiences and powers, if you demonstrate them or talk about them then you will lose them forever, or you will lose all your good fortune, or you may even lose your life. This is why no one will ever take up the Amazing Randi's challenge.
Why? To me this sounds like convenient excuse to show non-existent powers.
there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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alan
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by alan »

S. Dhammika's essay is perfectly rational, and admirably honest. I applaud him for speaking the truth.
Yana
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Yana »

beeblebrox wrote:
Sambojjhanga wrote: Oh, and one final thing. Ven. Dhammika is wrong about: the lack of anomalous phenomena in spiritual practices. Just because HE hasn't personally experienced them doesn't mean they don't occur. I've experienced them personally, I KNOW they are real.
I've also experienced and seen some things that might be called very uncanny... but I'm still hesitant to explain them as supernatural in themselves, or magical events. I'd rather just to try share them in a way that is down-to-earth, using the terms of a framework that is acceptable, or at least within the context of an actual Dhamma practice; if that's not possible, I just allude to them in an indirect way, maybe in an appearance of using a metaphor for something... but only if I think that will be helpful to others.

I wouldn't even think of trying to share it directly with those who might've had the same experiences, especially if I had nothing in reserve to explain these in a way that is beneficial. I'm afraid that it will only reinforce whatever delusions they might have about it, or whatever mistaken interpretations there might be. After all... I don't think that these events in themselves really have anything to do with the liberation (especially of mind), anyway.

I think that if these people ended up becoming more attached to their own experiences as something real, or they even feel vindicated about it (heaven forbid), then they will only become more bounded up within themselves... and more difficult for us to have a real discussion of Dhamma with. They'd only look at others who don't have these same experiences (or don't look at them in the same way as they do) with contempt, even if only mildly. The dukkha (note that I didn't say "theirs") will only still continue, whenever there seems to be a disagreement... this is not liberation.

:anjali:
hi,

i never understood people's mentality..people either think your crazy or don't believe you..the stupid thing is a lot of people experience it..yet every one are either living in denial or delusion.You either don't accept it occurs at all or are completely deluded by it claiming supernatural powers over this and that. Always the two extremes.Nobody ever accepts it as just a normal part of existence.When i am walking do i have to tell people that i am walking..is it so strange that i am walking..am i inflating my ego by walking...that's just the same with these supernatural occurrences..what's the big deal about it..The sixth sense, the mind has a much larger scope than our five senses..i would be ...frankly... "Surprised" if we didn't experience anything which most people deem "abnormal" just because it cannot be fully registered by the five senses..now i understand that you can't go around filling people's heads with your experiences but this shouldn't come from any other reason except Not to Mislead them and Not because you TOO are "denying it"..i think we should judge everything as skillfull or unskillfull by whether it will lead us to Nibbanna or not,not because it's seems abnormal and therefore cannot exist.Supernatural phenomenons at the end of the day it's just another phenomenon.And no i certainly don't believe anyone,not even a monk, who tells me they don't exist,Not because i am one of "those" deluded ones or i am trying to inflate my ego,really has it ever occurred to anyone that some people say it just for the simple fact that they have experienced it...like simple as that.

I also don't think you can undermine the role of magic or the supernatural in people's beliefs.Maybe for the trained mind we can realize it's normality,note it and leave it as it is on our quest to enlightenment but for the untrained mind it plays an important role.. man has been driven by fear and in his ignorance looked upon the supernatural since ancient times..upon these beliefs societies,kingdoms,and religions etc were founded upon.So to throw it all away means throwing away your chance of understanding just why groups of people behave the way they do.Which in many ways could serve as a tool for self reflection.

:anjali:
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alan
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by alan »

That was a whole bunch of words put together in a long post. But I don't know what it means.
What was your point?
Yana
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Yana »

well..i typed it in plain English so..maybe read the context or use a dictionary..it helps.
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

alan wrote:That was a whole bunch of words put together in a long post. But I don't know what it means.
What was your point?
I think the point, which for the record I didn't have much trouble understanding, was that we often treat the so-called "supernatural" elements of spiritual practice as either things to brag about or hushed secrets that we're afraid to admit to, when in reality they are simply functions of the mind that should be acknowledged and let go of like all other physical or mental functions.

At least that was my translation of a post that didn't seem to require a translation (or a snarky rebuttal like you offered).
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
Yana
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Yana »

Hi Alan,

Lonesome yoghurts right in expressing my point.I'm sorry but after typing that much and in plain English i just didn't feel like elaborating it even more especially if i know your not interested and it does show..If you want a shorter version to know what the whole point is just read Lonesome yoghurts explanation.. :anjali: i'm also sorry if i was on the defensive. Please accept my apology :anjali:
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beeblebrox
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by beeblebrox »

Yana wrote: I also don't think you can undermine the role of magic or the supernatural in people's beliefs.Maybe for the trained mind we can realize it's normality,note it and leave it as it is on our quest to enlightenment but for the untrained mind it plays an important role.. man has been driven by fear and in his ignorance looked upon the supernatural since ancient times..upon these beliefs societies,kingdoms,and religions etc were founded upon.So to throw it all away means throwing away your chance of understanding just why groups of people behave the way they do.Which in many ways could serve as a tool for self reflection.
I think you're right. Master Linji actually put that to an interesting use (he lived in the year 800's)... he said that to walk on the earth is much more miraculous compared to walking on the water, or in the air.

To view the Dhamma as a teaching that is made up entirely of ordinary things, which leads to Nibbana... I think that will be quite a feat. To try to see it otherwise, I think that will be not to give it enough credit.

:anjali:
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Alex123
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Alex123 »

Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.
And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.
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DAWN
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by DAWN »

Alex123 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.
And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.
I'am sorry for this offtopic. Just to say thanks for your traduction of word dukkha like imperfection, it seems more exactly then suffering.

Спасибо большое Алекс! Уже давно искал нужное слово для дуккхи. :anjali:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Cittasanto
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Cittasanto »

Alex123 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:there are plenty of religious texts where such powers are demonstrated talked about... and not lost.
seams like an excuse.
And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.
but it does put a dampener on the get-out clauses expressed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Alex123
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Alex123 »

Cittasanto wrote:And we have these religious texts... No guarantee that the stories are meant to be taken literary.
but it does put a dampener on the get-out clauses expressed.[/quote]

There was Randi's challenge that offered 1 million dollars reward...

Why can't people who possess super powers show them to more people and put materialist worldview into doubt?
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