NO self

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DAWN
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

whynotme wrote: Because the wise one doesn't talk off topic often. The topic here is no self, do you see the Buddha always bring the observation of anicca, dukkha and anatta as the answer for every question?

I will tell you my story. Formerly, I was like you now a day, every thing I talked seem right, yes do this, do that, it is like this, it is like that. I feel comfortable, nothing a problem for me till the day suffering catches me and I realized that I hit a wall, the practice is useless even I tried very hard to follow what is said in the suttas. I realized that I hold on too much on my mind, it is deep in my mind in the unconsciousness. And I saw many things, e.g things that I thought not fit to the Buddhism but it exists. So now when I see others gives free advices, I knew them think the dhamma is easy to see, but actually it is not. Destroying emotions is extremely hard, not just only observe thing can solve it, but you need actually observe it, thing you only know when you hit a wall

Regards
If this topic speaks about "NO self or NOT self", i am sorry for my offtopic. Anyway it seems to me NOT important in practice (or perharps NO important in practice ?) to know if rain drop is NO-self or NOT-self, perharps because for me is the same, and i dont want to know the diferences but the similities.
Diference divide
Similies unify
Knowlegde devide
Practice unify

I know that all dhamma cant be devided from the rest, so i practice unity, and never understand devision.
Devision is the origin of Self, so perharps to understand if dhammas are NO-self or NOT-self we have just to stop to try devide it, but unify it ? have to stop speak about unity by devision?

Regards.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english
whynotme
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Re: NO self

Post by whynotme »

tiltbillings wrote:
whynotme wrote: Well, I don't want to be rude, but you are wrong and inexperienced.
That is a bit inappropriate and it is a bit rude.
Thanks, I changed my post a little

@ DAWN, if you want the unification, there is a lesson in the Vinaya where the Buddha taught how the monks and laypeople should react when there is a division in the sangha and dhamma

Regards
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DAWN
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

whynotme wrote: @ DAWN, if you want the unification, there is a lesson in the Vinaya where the Buddha taught how the monks and laypeople should react when there is a division in the sangha and dhamma

Regards
I dont want dhammas be unify, i want dhmmas be what they are. I practice what i see, and i see what i practice. So if dhammas was devided, i were practice devision. But they not.

What is RIGHT practice? Is the practice that goes with the Dhamma, the law wich lead all dhammas.
What is RIGHT view? Is the view that is based on the Dhamma, the law wich lead all dhammas.
etc.

No-self or Not-self, for me is the same, perharps there is some different nuances, but is because of this nuances the practice is different? I'dont think so.

Sila samadhi panna practice.
Sila depends on No-self or Not-self view? No, because in Sila there is no ego, so this difference dont exist.
Samadhi depends on No-self or Not-self view? No, because is Samadhi there is no ego, so we dont care if it's No-self or Not-self
Panna depends on No-self or Not-self view? No, because in Panna there is no ego too...

Of caurse we can speak about it, but is this discusion constructive or destructive? have this discution any practice benefits? I dont think so.

So i would like just ask pardon for my offtopic.
Regards.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Zom
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Re: NO self

Post by Zom »

Of course if one thinks "I have no self" that is a self view.
I'd even say more exact: "My self has no self" = wrong view. While "There is no self" = right view.

Btw, "Right View" is to be grasped (as a path factor, which includes correct opinions (ditthi) as well) until you let go of it only when you reach arahantship (read MN 22 about that -) :hello:
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Re: NO self

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

"Self" is a fairy tale told by a ghost to its imaginary friend.

BB
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DAWN
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

BubbaBuddhist wrote:"Self" is a fairy tale told by a ghost to its imaginary friend.

BB
Self is memory.
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Kim OHara
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Re: NO self

Post by Kim OHara »

DAWN wrote:
BubbaBuddhist wrote:"Self" is a fairy tale told by a ghost to its imaginary friend.

BB
Self is memory.
BB is saying almost the same thing, Dawn, but more poetically. I like his way of saying it.

:smile:
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

Kim O'Hara wrote:
DAWN wrote:
BubbaBuddhist wrote:"Self" is a fairy tale told by a ghost to its imaginary friend.

BB
Self is memory.
BB is saying almost the same thing, Dawn, but more poetically. I like his way of saying it.

:smile:
Kim
Ah ok :smile: I'am sorry.

Actualy i dont realy understand what was said, but ghosts, and imaginary friends, is to much complicate and perharps to much poetic. I prefere hardcore Dhamma.
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Re: NO self

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

I like hardcore too, I spend a lot of time in the Abhidhamma and the Visudhimagga. Shall we wend our merry way through the fifty-four kamavacara cittas, just for the fun of it? :tongue:

BB
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Sylvester
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Re: NO self

Post by Sylvester »

There is very interesting sutta in SN 22.55 that would explain the Buddha's reluctance to deal with Vacchagotta's question on post-mortem non-existence, on the ground that it is too closely allied to the nihilists' position if He had replied in the affirmative to the question.

According to SN 22.81, the nihilists take the position -
He may not regard form as self … or hold such an (eternalist) view, but he holds such a view as this: ‘I might not be, and it might not be for me; I will not be, (and) it will not be for me.’ That annihilationist view is a construction….

Na heva kho rūpaṃ attato samanupassati, na vedanaṃ … na saññaṃ… na saṅkhāre… na viññāṇaṃ attato samanupassati; nāpi evaṃdiṭṭhi hoti – ‘so attā so loko, so pecca bhavissāmi nicco dhuvo sassato avipariṇāmadhammo’ti. ca kho evaṃdiṭṭhi hoti – ‘no cassaṃ no ca me siyā na bhavissāmi' na me bhavissati’ti. Yā kho pana sā, bhikkhave, ucchedadiṭṭhi saṅkhāro so.
Central to the nihilistic position is the bold text.

On the other hand, the Buddha takes the nihilist thesis and makes a subtle, but significant switch in SN 22.55 as follows -
No c’assa no ca me siyā , na bhavissati na me bhavissati

“‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, (and) there will not be for me
According to SN 22.55, resolving in such a manner leads to the abandoning of the lower fetters. So how is the ariyan conception different from the nihilistic one?

The nihilistic position is premised on the verb bhavissāmi actually having a self-referent, since it is in the 1st person singular. This leads to the translation "I will not be". On the other hand, the ariyan version uses the verb bhavissati, which is in the 3rd person singular. In such usage, it takes on an abstract/process oriented conception shorn of self-view, leading to the translation "It will not be".

The concern that the ariyan version could be easily mistaken for the nihilist version is suggested in SN 22.55 -
Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: ‘If there were not, there would not be for me; there will not be, (so) there will not be for me.’
BB has a fulsome discussion on this sutta. I follow BB is using the Ceylonese variant reading and not using the Burmese reading of SN 22.55 as its "no cassaṃ, no ca me siyā, nābhavissa, na me bhavissatī" appears to have suffered a textual loss.
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Re: NO self

Post by Zom »

The nihilistic position is premised on the verb bhavissāmi actually having a self-referent, since it is in the 1st person singular. This leads to the translation "I will not be". On the other hand, the ariyan version uses the verb bhavissati, which is in the 3rd person singular. In such usage, it takes on an abstract/process oriented conception shorn of self-view, leading to the translation "It will not be".
Ye thats a nice note .)
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Re: NO self

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

On the subject of "self" as memory, I think this is an oversimplification. The khandha/cetasika perception or sanna, according to abhidhamma, is what is resposible for memory and is only one component of the functional construction of "self-notion." From Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkon:
Perception has the characteristic of perceiving by on act of general inclusion, and the function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering) (I am using the translation of the ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, page 69, BPS, Kandy, 1976), as when woodcutters 'perceive' logs and so forth. Its manifestation is the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended.

Sanna is not the same as citta which is the 'leader' in cognizing an object. As we have seen, sanna recognizes the object and it 'marks' it so that it can be recognized again. This is explained by way of a simile: carpenters put tags or signs on logs so that they can recognize them at once by means of these marks. This simile can help us to understand the complex process of recognizing or remembering. What we in conventional language call "remembering" consists of many different moments of citta and each of these moments of citta is accompanied by sanna which connects past experiences with the present one and conditions again recognition in the future. This connecting function is represented by the words 'recognition' and 'marking' (1 See Abhidhamma Studies, by the Ven. Nyanaponika, 1976, page 70, where it is explained that the making of marks and remembering is included in every act of perception.)
As the Ven . Dr. Walpole Rahula explains in What the Buddha taught, "self" is a functional creation of the khandhas so the khandas operate together. Otherwise it would be like five horses attempting to pull a cart in five different directions.

So defining "self" as memory would be the same as defining it as a function of sanna, which I think would be incomplete and unsupported by sutta or abhidhamma.

BB
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

BubbaBuddhist wrote:On the subject of "self" as memory, I think this is an oversimplification. The khandha/cetasika perception or sanna, according to abhidhamma, is what is resposible for memory and is only one component of the functional construction of "self-notion." From Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkon:
Perception has the characteristic of perceiving by on act of general inclusion, and the function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering) (I am using the translation of the ven. Nyanaponika, Abhidhamma Studies, page 69, BPS, Kandy, 1976), as when woodcutters 'perceive' logs and so forth. Its manifestation is the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended.

Sanna is not the same as citta which is the 'leader' in cognizing an object. As we have seen, sanna recognizes the object and it 'marks' it so that it can be recognized again. This is explained by way of a simile: carpenters put tags or signs on logs so that they can recognize them at once by means of these marks. This simile can help us to understand the complex process of recognizing or remembering. What we in conventional language call "remembering" consists of many different moments of citta and each of these moments of citta is accompanied by sanna which connects past experiences with the present one and conditions again recognition in the future. This connecting function is represented by the words 'recognition' and 'marking' (1 See Abhidhamma Studies, by the Ven. Nyanaponika, 1976, page 70, where it is explained that the making of marks and remembering is included in every act of perception.)
As the Ven . Dr. Walpole Rahula explains in What the Buddha taught, "self" is a functional creation of the khandhas so the khandas operate together. Otherwise it would be like five horses attempting to pull a cart in five different directions.

So defining "self" as memory would be the same as defining it as a function of sanna, which I think would be incomplete and unsupported by sutta or abhidhamma.

BB
Yes, self is not just memory, but memory is the "rupa" of self. Ego is made of memory and leaded by memory, conditioned by memory and die with memory. What is conditon to this memory (consciosness, body etc), is an another question, but self-rupa, is memory.

I cant find "my self" out of my memory, and i cant concider consciosness like part of "my self".

Imagine, you have a party, you drunk a lot :toast: , you wake up :zzz: , and you friend tel you see that, it's you who does it :jawdrop: . You tell that it's not you, you dont remember that you does it. :shrug:
So you have not memory about it, but if we return in the time, at the moment when that accident was done, you have all, consciosness, citta, sanna every you want, but this information is not a part of your memory, it's gone, so you cant say that it was you, this accident is not a part of your "I".

So if the memory is the "self"? - yes.
If this definition of self must be completed to work with it? - No. Perharps some one have to know much more details about "self-nature" to stop concider himself like a self, to stop apropriate this "self", and finaly be liberated from it, but i think is not the essential information to be freed from "self-view".

PS: ""self" is a functional creation of the khandhas so the khandas operate together." - it's sounds to complicate, i dont understant it. Dhamma is simple, dry and dirrect, can be seen right now, and actualy, with all respect to the Ven . Dr. Walpole Rahula, i cant see what he said. If some one can traduse it in sample language i will be gentil.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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danieLion
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Re: NO self

Post by danieLion »

robertk wrote:I have little time so I hope this old post from Dhammanando is sufficient to explain:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... 3364&st=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I can't get this link to work.
robertk wrote:It is ironic that Thanissaro's outright attack on Orthodox theravada is now being held up as some type of New Orthodox position.
1. Even if this were true, how would it qualify as ironic? "Attack" is overstating it; "outright attack" is completely inappropriate.
2. "Orthodoxy" is just a fancy way of talking about opinions. So, you're criticizing Thanissaro for having an opinion about a compilation of opinions?
3. The way you've phrased it is ambiguous, and suggests you think Thanissaro should be kicked out of the club. Theravada is a living, dynamic tradition, not a static or unchangeable monolith with Country Club requirements. Thanissaro is a living part of Theravada, a living tradition, and that alone is all he (or any Theravadin) needs to justify challenging the tradition's staleness.
4. It might be more accurate to contextualize your criticisms in terms of orthopraxy instead of orthodoxy.

Furthermore, I wasn't paying much attention to this thread until mikenz66 pointed it out to me in the New Book on Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu thread (His post and my response link here.). Here's an excerpt:
danieLion wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,
Since Ven Thanissaro is quite clear that he disgrees with other interpretations in a number of areas, it is no surprise that a number of other interpreters disagree with him....
Ven Thanissaro makes some interesting points regarding how to make use the the "not-self" teachings. Some possible objections to his interpretation have been discussed in the threads.... Robert and others have given some thought to the matter recently in [this NO self] thread...:


Since this issue of not-self is central to the Buddha Dhamma, and grasping it wrongly could be problematical, it seems worthwhile to examine it carefully:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

12. "Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.
:anjali:
Mike
...What Thanissaro teaches about anatta is irrelevant (I don't study Thanissaro much anymore and this latest book is just a compilation of scattered teachings I've already digested or got indigestion from.). Whether or not Thanissaro actually told Dhammanando he believes in an eternal self is irrelevant. Whether the Buddha meant NO self or NOT self by anatta is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the Buddha never came out and plainly said the self does not exist, and the one time (we know of) someone asked him if the self exists he refused to answer. What is relevant is that the texts are full of locutions (personal pronouns, etc...) where the existence of the self is taken for granted.

It makes very little difference if one believes and acts as if one has no self or if one acts and believes that the aggregates are not self because in the context of the whole Buddha Dhamma either view has path utility.
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Re: NO self

Post by DAWN »

Here Buddha seems to speak about self.
He dont refute "Manyness" = Self, he dont refute "Oneness" = Anatta, he tell just that is not the way that he teach Dhamma.
It mean that dhammas exist on relative point of view and dont exist on absolute point of view, that they are self, on relative point of view, and anatta on absolute point of view, but it's not the way that he teach The Dhamma of liberation from suffering, he teach it by depending origination. "If there IS this, so that IS"

What do you think?

SN 12.48
Lokayatika Sutta: The Cosmologist

Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist [1] went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything [2] exist?"

"'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?"

"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then is everything a Oneness?"

"'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."

"Then is everything a Manyness?"

"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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