Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

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Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:36 pm

Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

They seems to be imperfect, because they are impermanent
But they are also have perfection because they exist, because they are product of causes, like a bodies of living beings are perfect for their environement, or any other dhamma which is perfect in his existence, apropriate and made by it's invironement, made by causes.

What do you think?
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:56 am

perfect in what sense?
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby Kusala » Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:30 am

DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

They seems to be imperfect, because they are impermanent
But they are also have perfection because they exist, because they are product of causes, like a bodies of living beings are perfect for their environement, or any other dhamma which is perfect in his existence, apropriate and made by it's invironement, made by causes.

What do you think?



Dhamma is like a raft

The Buddha's teaching does not start off with any kind of theoretical dogmas or beliefs. It begins with a simple observations that human life is essentially problematic. These problems, difficulties, inadequacies the Buddha refers to as Dukkha, is usually translated as suffering. And the value of the Dhamma is pragmatic and instrumental.It offers to show us the way out of our problematic situations and the way to attain the true happiness.

The Buddha compares the Dhamma to a raft. We use a raft to get from one side of a river to the other, not to worship, enshrine or to put on our head and carry around with us wherever we go. In the same way, we use the Dhamma as our means to cross from our present state of bondage and suffering to the other shore, the state of absolute freedom, Nibbana.


http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dham ... a_raft.htm
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:23 am

acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?


By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:31 am

Kusala wrote:Dhamma is like a raft

The Buddha's teaching does not start off with any kind of theoretical dogmas or beliefs. It begins with a simple observations that human life is essentially problematic. These problems, difficulties, inadequacies the Buddha refers to as Dukkha, is usually translated as suffering. And the value of the Dhamma is pragmatic and instrumental.It offers to show us the way out of our problematic situations and the way to attain the true happiness.

The Buddha compares the Dhamma to a raft. We use a raft to get from one side of a river to the other, not to worship, enshrine or to put on our head and carry around with us wherever we go. In the same way, we use the Dhamma as our means to cross from our present state of bondage and suffering to the other shore, the state of absolute freedom, Nibbana.


http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/dham ... a_raft.htm

I'ts true.
But if we understand how dhammas exist, how they move, we can adoptate our practice, our life, go with dhammas, and dont against dhammas, go with the flow, and dont against the flow.
Suffering is difference between what we magine dhammas to be, and what they realy are.

So perharps, if we understand the perfection of dhammas, we will not judge it, we will see their perfection, we will be in harmony with their existance, accept their existance, let them be, dont be conditioned by them, and finaly find the Calm.
:roll:
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby equilibrium » Fri Nov 09, 2012 10:01 am

The dhamma is to be seen by the "mind".....and for the "mind".....so the "mind" can be set "free".
Iti 92. Sa"nghaa.tika.n.na sutta : Seeing the Dhamma [Excerpt]

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Even if a monk, taking hold of my outer cloak, were to follow right behind me, placing his feet in my footsteps, yet if he were to be greedy for sensual pleasures, strong in his passions, malevolent in mind, corrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness muddled, unalert, uncentered, his mind scattered, and his faculties uncontrolled, then he would be far from me, and I from him. Why is that? Because he does not see the Dhamma. Not seeing the Dhamma, he does not see me (Dhamma.m apassanto na ma.m passati).

"But even if a monk were to live one hundred leagues away, yet if he were to have no greed for sensual objects, were not strong in his passions, not malevolent in mind, uncorrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness established, alert, centered, his mind at singleness, and his faculties well-restrained, then he would be near to me, and I to him. Why is that? Because he sees the Dhamma. Seeing the Dhamma, he sees me.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:57 am

DAWN wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?


By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.

I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:26 am

acinteyyo wrote:I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?


Yes it is. Dhammas are perfect in their conditions.

They seems to be perfect on relative point of view and absolute point of view, because they are in "harmony" on both. Do i mistake?
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby Kusala » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:58 am

Salient feaures of Dhamma - By Bhikkhu Bodhi

Many shades of meaning


The Buddha's teaching is called the Dhamma. The word 'Dhamma' has several shades of meaning . In the most basic sense ' Dhamma' signifies the true nature of things. Dhamma is the fundamental element of lawfulness operating in the universe, structuring all events, all experience and all phenomena. All actual things, all phenomena are called dhammas in the plural because all of them embody the true nature of things.

Dhamma also means the ethical law, the fundamental principle of righteousness, the cosmic law of virtue and goodness.

Dhamma also has a practical sense, something applicable to our own life. Dhamma is that which sustains us , which supports us, or which upholds our own effort to live in virtue and goodness. In this sense Dhamma is the path. On the one hand it is the lower path of virtue, on the other, Dhamma is the Supramundane path, the higher path that leads to realization of the true nature of things.

The Buddha's teaching is called the Dhamma, because this teaching makes known the true nature of things - discloses the true nature of all existence.


http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/s_dhamma_.htm
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby ground » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:07 am

DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

There is dependent arising and dependent cessation. Where and when does perfection arise? Where and when does imperfection arise? :sage:
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:32 am

ground wrote:
DAWN wrote:Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

There is dependent arising and dependent cessation. Where and when does perfection arise? Where and when does imperfection arise? :sage:


By following your question i can answer that "in dependent arising perfection arise".

Can i reformulate your question?
There is dependance, where is perfection?

Now i cant answer. (But actualy i an answer : Perfection is "There", so thee is acualy no question possible, perharps : "Dependence, perfection?" :sage: :spy: :) )

I see what you mean, i agree with you, there is no any perfect dhamma, there is no any dhamma in harmony, there is just pefection there is just harmony. But actualy is not the true question, the true question of this topic is if peoples see perfection or they see imperfection.

Buddha say that sankharas are dukkha, they are imperfect (only when the mind is full of difilements?), but we can see, here and now that they are actualy perfect by nature.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby Dan74 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:51 am

acinteyyo wrote:
DAWN wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:perfect in what sense?


By perfection of one dhamma i mean that this dhamma is perfect in his existance, that fenomena is the fruit of conditions, made by his environement, fenomena cant be somethink different, it is what it is, it's perfect in his conditioned existance.

For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.

What is condition?
Condition is some kind of limit, so energy is conditioned by different ways, and when all conditions are here, fenomena apear in the "free" space, so fenomena is perfect in his conditioned existance.

I dont nkow if you see what i mean.

I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?


Precisely, even "going against dhammas", "judging dhammas", etc - all this is perfect too. Because these are dhammas too.

Such teachings can be helpful to end the wasteful inner fighting and instead simply attend carefully. IMO.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:24 am

"Dharmas are without blame."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:41 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:"Dharmas are without blame."

Does that apply even to lobha-mula-cittas that are characterised blaming something?

If not, wouldn't that be establishing a duality between experience and experiencer?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:45 pm

DAWN wrote:For exemple, when the room is not clean, many dhammas, many objects are dispached everywehe, and position of each object is perfect, is in absolute harmony with environement, because this position was determinated by causes. If i change this position, this object will move again, and when he will find his new perfect position,he will stop the movement. And if enviroement in room will change too, this object will move again, leaded by conditions of nw environement, and "find" the harmony position, position when all conditions will not be in "conflict" with this dhammas, and will let it be.


Hi Dawn... perfection is just brahmin foolishness. They tried use that as an excuse for their own mess of a caste system... where it's possible for a fool be a brahmin, and for a human being to be born untouchable... not to mention all of their messy sacrifices of animals.

Dawn, a messy room is impermanent. That is why it's possible to clean it up. This is where the real liberation lies... not the perfection of anything. Especially not the ones that are considered blamable... by the wise, like your mother for example.

The perferction of a mess is just a brahmin's foolishness. I'm glad that the Buddha debunked it, for the good of everyone.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:52 pm

Dan74 wrote:Precisely, even "going against dhammas", "judging dhammas", etc - all this is perfect too. Because these are dhammas too.

Such teachings can be helpful to end the wasteful inner fighting and instead simply attend carefully. IMO.


Yes, anyway we cant go against the flow. But it's a forum, so we have to speak about somethink, get some debate etc, you know.. ;)
It's helpful for some one who dont see anatta, and have some expectations about dhammas, it's true.
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:57 pm

beeblebrox wrote:Hi Dawn... perfection is just brahmin foolishness. They tried use that as an excuse for their own mess of a caste system... where it's possible for a fool be a brahmin, and for a human being to be born untouchable... not to mention all of their messy sacrifices of animals.

Dawn, a messy room is impermanent. That is why it's possible to clean it up. This is where the real liberation lies... not the perfection of anything. Especially not the ones that are considered blamable... by the wise, like your mother for example.

The perferction of a mess is just a brahmin's foolishness. I'm glad that the Buddha debunked it, for the good of everyone.


There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess. :shrug:
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby beeblebrox » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:05 pm

DAWN wrote:There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess.


According to the brahmins during the Buddha's time, their caste system was perfect... where the high castes would be born from the Brahma's mouth, and low castes would be born from his foot. Do you see any foolishness in that at all? The Buddha did... and he took them to task. Let's not turn the Dhamma into a system like that, again.

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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:23 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
DAWN wrote:There is no mess, there is logic, there is order, there is chain causes and consequances, there are no any dhamma without causes. There is?
What do you mean by mess? I see perfect order, perfect logic, depending origination... etc

I can mistake, of corse, but i dont see mess.


According to the brahmins during the Buddha's time, their caste system was perfect... where the high castes would be born from the Brahma's mouth, and low castes would be born from his foot. Do you see any foolishness in that at all? The Buddha did... and he took them to task. Let's not turn the Dhamma into a system like that, again.

:anjali:


I see foolishness in birning childrens, in generaly.
Birn a children is the most egoistic and evil thing that we can do, so, how Buddha said, is the origination of whole mass of suffering, and cast system take their part in this suffering. And it's true that cast system is the system of "identity", and all identity is the perfect condition to procreation, to procreation of suffering, so i see it like foolishness.

1. Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation.

Metta for all living beings and their parents. Like Jesus said "they dont know what they do"
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Re: Are dhammas perfect or imperfect?

Postby acinteyyo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:48 pm

DAWN wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:I see... but according to your definition then everything is perfect the way it is, isn't it?


Yes it is. Dhammas are perfect in their conditions.

They seems to be perfect on relative point of view and absolute point of view, because they are in "harmony" on both. Do i mistake?

Why should anyone make an end to suffering then?
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

:anjali:
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