MN 117 has been tampered with

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:08 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby JhanaStream » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:09 pm


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:48 pm


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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:59 am

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:41 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:46 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:16 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:43 am

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sylvester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:53 am


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:05 am

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:08 am

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sylvester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:04 am


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:29 am


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sylvester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:48 am

Hi Mike

Indeed, Dave's theory is plausible and will probably explain some of the Mahavihara tradition creeping into the Pali Canon. It will not however explain some of the phenomena noted by Norman which go the other way, ie the Commentators resisting the loss of original meanings with the advent of Sanskritisation in the Pali texts.

Norman believes that the Reciters and the Commentators were 2 seperate bodies, thus accounting for the Commentators' ability to "audit" the Reciters' Sanskrit-influenced readings. Ven Analayo disagrees (vehemently!) with Norman on this. I suppose Ven Analayo has the advantage of reading Chinese and Tibetan and could therefore come to the conclusion that the Reciters and Commentators were one and the same.

We need to be careful with the notion of "Commentators". Ven Analayo's work would indicate that we should not inexorably conflate "Commentators" with the Mahavihara Commentators. The commentary began well before the ascendance of the Mahavihara. To this, he points to the Agamas containing more "commentarial" material than the Nikayas. This suggests the Sarva and Mulasarva Reciters were probably a tad more liberal in their redaction process than the Pali Reciters were. There is therefore the possibility that perhaps there was even a pre-sectarian Commentarial tradition, until the schools went their separate ways.

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:28 am


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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby JhanaStream » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:04 am


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:21 am

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Re: MN 117: a counterfeit

Postby Sekha » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:35 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby Sylvester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:53 am


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Re: MN 117 has been tampered with

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Just as an aside:

The Sarvastivadins and the Sautrantikas argued over certain dhammas (prapti, aprapti) while the Theravada, "probably outside this argument", ended up positing bhavanga to address the same issue. (Dharma: Its Early History in Law, Religion, and Narrative, by Alf Hiltebeitel, p. 145-6)

Additionally, the Pali Vinaya doesn't seem to have to deal with dharmasastra laws, while the other Vinayas do - so, it's possible that Sri Lanka was becoming isolated from mainland Indian Buddhism earlier and more thoroughly than we might otherwise have expected.


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