Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
JhanaStream
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:08 am

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by JhanaStream »

daverupa wrote:Where is this stated?
:heart:
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, brāhmaṇa, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā , passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single
JhanaStream
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:08 am

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by JhanaStream »

djlewis wrote:Maybe it's this -- the observational function of mindfulness keeps watch not only on the object itself, but on the mind doing the watching...
DJ

My personal view is how the scriptures about mindfulness are written have lead to the common view that mindfulness watches the meditation object. My reading of the stock phrase about mindfulness is 'right mindfulness' refers to being mindful to watch the meditation object.

The mind (consciousness) does the watching. Mindfulness keeps watch on the mind to ensure it is watching the meditation object (instead of watching TV or reading a book).

Metta
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by daverupa »

JhanaStream wrote:
daverupa wrote:Where is this stated?
:heart:
Āraddhaṃ kho pana me, brāhmaṇa, vīriyaṃ ahosi asallīnaṃ, upaṭṭhitā sati asammuṭṭhā , passaddho kāyo asāraddho, samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ

Unflagging persistence was aroused in me, and unmuddled mindfulness established. My body was calm & unaroused, my mind concentrated & single
Ah yes, a few places in the Majjhima Nikaya at least.

So it would be correct to say that anapanasati results in samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ, I think, given the overall pattern of practice being described. It seems, therefore, that ones practice and understanding of anapanasati will then color an understanding of what "concentrated & single" means; that, or satipatthana is the rubric. These are probably important pieces of subjectivity for us all to consider.

In any event, since the Visuddhimagga is part of the necessary context here, this is as far as I'll inquire. Always nice to clarify subtle points!
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Sekha »

JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:This is completely baseless.
I have quoted the relevent scripture around 3 or 4 times in this thread. How can these discourses be 'baseless'?
you are quite right, I have to temper this statement.

I am digging the issue, and I find out that ekaggata actually does not mean 'one-pointedness' in some suttas, and that it is a mental state in which one still handles thoughts:

AN 5.151
“pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato suṇanto saddhammaṃ bhabbo niyāmaṃ okkamituṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṃ. katamehi pañcahi? na kathaṃ paribhoti, na kathikaṃ paribhoti, na attānaṃ paribhoti, avikkhittacitto dhammaṃ suṇāti, ekaggacitto yoniso ca manasi karoti.
Bhikkhus, endowed with five things by listening to the good Teaching it is possible to enter the righteous way in wholesome states. What five? Not enjoying talking, not enjoying boasting, not enjoying life, listening to the Teaching with an undisturbed mind, and thinking wisely with the mind concentrated.
Here it is clear that while being 'ekaggacitta' one 'manasi karoti' (reflects/attends), which, as made clear at MN 2, refers to thinking:
So evaṃ ayoniso manasi karoti: ‘ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Na nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ?
This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?
So it seems that the suttas are contradicting themselves when they define samadhi as 'citassa ekaggata'.. this requires some further analysis.
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:you engage in debate by making unfounded statements that merely aim to contradict others.
What about considering the possibility that we may simply not be 100% correct in our understanding of the scriptures?
Sure. But that is not an open license to say anything.

:anjali:
Last edited by Sekha on Thu Nov 15, 2012 4:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by santa100 »

djlewis wrote:
That's always confused me because it sounds more like Concentration. In fact, III.4 says: "Concentration has non-distraction as its characteristic. Its function is to eliminate distraction. It is manifested as non-wavering.
Some alternative terms beside "non-wobbling" might help..
"Yasomitra characterizes the activity of apilapana (not wobbling) toward the object of mindfulness as that of "taking up", or "sustaining", or perhaps more appropriately "noting" or "fixing". Such a sense would be consistent with the traditional connection between mindfulness and attentivenes. "
~~ Janet Gyatso - In the Mirror of Memory ~~

Relationship between Mindfulness and Concentration is further demonstrated in the training of Anapanasati (Mindfulness of In/out Breath), one needs to be mindful(sati) of the in/out breath(anapana) first (the implementation could be a combination of those terms above: non-wobbling, noting, fixing, etc..) in order to bring about more refined states of concentration. Thus the Vsm depiction of Concentration and Mindfulness sound fine to me, especially when we consider the full paragraphs:
Vsm XIV.139 (on Concentration):It puts (ádhiyati) consciousness evenly (samam) on the object, or it puts it rightly (samma) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samadhana) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samadhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non-distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp’s flame when there is no draught
And
Vsm XIV.141 (on Mindfulness):By its means they remember (saranti), or it itself remembers, or it is just
mere remembering (sarana), thus it is mindfulness (sati). It has the characteristic of not wobbling. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding, or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. Its proximate cause is strong perception, or its proximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness concerned with the body, and so on (see MN 10). It should be regarded, however, as like a pillar because it is firmly founded, or as like a door-keeper because it guards the eye-door, and so on
JhanaStream
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:08 am

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by JhanaStream »

Sekha wrote:I am digging the issue, and I find out that ekaggata actually does not mean 'one-pointedness' in some suttas, and that it is a mental state in which one still handles thoughts:

AN 5.151
“pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato suṇanto saddhammaṃ bhabbo niyāmaṃ okkamituṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṃ. katamehi pañcahi? na kathaṃ paribhoti, na kathikaṃ paribhoti, na attānaṃ paribhoti, avikkhittacitto dhammaṃ suṇāti, ekaggacitto yoniso ca manasi karoti.
Bhikkhus, endowed with five things by listening to the good Teaching it is possible to enter the righteous way in wholesome states. What five? Not enjoying talking, not enjoying boasting, not enjoying life, listening to the Teaching with an undisturbed mind, and thinking wisely with the mind concentrated.
My opinion is ekaggacitto here means 'single minded'; to be single minded when engaging wise reflection. I am not sure 'concentration', in the sense of samadhi, is an appropriate rendering. However, in respect to jhana, ekaggacitto is single minded in respect to concentration (samadhi).

:candle:
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Sekha »

correct. There are many errors in sister upalavanna's translation and this one slipped in through my carelessness. Indeed 'single minded' seems to be an appropriate rendering.

But this is only a detail, it does not change anything to my argument nor the discussion.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Sekha »

What has been said merits a further development:
JhanaStream wrote: You are overlooking the fact ekaggata occurs prior to the description of the jhanas.
There are a only 3 suttas where citassa ekaggata or an equivalent is clearly mentioned before the first jhana. Those are: MN 4, MN 19, AN 8.11. This is a rather weak evidence for your claim, as one may well consider that those suttas, just like MN 117, have been influenced by abhidhammic doctrines.

Here is a list of suttas featuring the 'gradual path' presenting the practices in a progressive way, and none of them mentions ekaggata before the first jhana:
MN 27, 38, 39, 51, 53, 60, 76, 79, 94, 101, 107, 112, 125
DN 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
An 4.198, AN 10.99.
That is 27 suttas altogether.

So my previous remark still needs to be addressed in the case of these 27 suttas even before paying attention to the above mentioned 3 suttas:
Sekha wrote: So, if it [citassa ekaggata] is a sine qua non prerequisite to the first jhana that implies that thoughts subside - and the Buddha makes great deal of handling thoughts - why on earth would he keep total silence on the issue?
:anjali:
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Assaji »

Hi David,
djlewis wrote:Anyway, why would the Buddha ascribe such a crucial characteristic/function to two supposedly distinct elements of the Eightfold Path? Or am I being too pedantic (and modern?) to expect that kind of crisp orthogonality. In any case, my gut interpretation says that these are about Concentration, not Mindfulness. Or maybe it's saying that Mindfulness is never present without some measure of Concentration?
"Sati" - remembrance (aka mindfulness), as a part of the Eightfold Path, belongs to the "Group of concentration" (samadhi-khandha), along with right effort and right concentration.
It is indeed akin to concentration, as can be seen from the Mahanama sutta, where Buddha explains how remembrance (sati) leads to concentration:

[1] "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Similarly, remembrance of a suitable basis (arammana) is a direct way to samadhi. For example, remembrance of breath (anapana-sati) leads to samadhi with element of air as a basis. This basis becomes predominant (agga), and the mind becomes "eka-agga" (with one basis predominant).

Present-time awareness, often confused with 'sati', is in Pali "sampajañña".
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Nyana »

:goodpost:
User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1794
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by gavesako »

Sekha wrote:
JhanaStream wrote:
Sekha wrote:This is completely baseless.
I am digging the issue, and I find out that ekaggata actually does not mean 'one-pointedness' in some suttas, and that it is a mental state in which one still handles thoughts:

AN 5.151
“pañcahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato suṇanto saddhammaṃ bhabbo niyāmaṃ okkamituṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṃ. katamehi pañcahi? na kathaṃ paribhoti, na kathikaṃ paribhoti, na attānaṃ paribhoti, avikkhittacitto dhammaṃ suṇāti, ekaggacitto yoniso ca manasi karoti.
Bhikkhus, endowed with five things by listening to the good Teaching it is possible to enter the righteous way in wholesome states. What five? Not enjoying talking, not enjoying boasting, not enjoying life, listening to the Teaching with an undisturbed mind, and thinking wisely with the mind concentrated.
Here it is clear that while being 'ekaggacitta' one 'manasi karoti' (reflects/attends), which, as made clear at MN 2, refers to thinking:
So evaṃ ayoniso manasi karoti: ‘ahosiṃ nu kho ahaṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Na nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ? Kiṃ nu kho ahosiṃ atītamaddhānaṃ?
This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?
So it seems that the suttas are contradicting themselves when they define samadhi as 'citassa ekaggata'.. this requires some further analysis.

There is no contradiction in the Suttas if we do not introduced our preconceived notions about what certain terms should mean. One can have a focused mind (ekaggacitto) and still be listening to Dhamma and paying attention is an appropriate way, just as one can be in meditation with some vitakka & vicara (mental thought activity going on) and also sustain a focused attention on this process, which then leads to a deeper stillness.

By the way, I think the first two factors above should be better translated: "He does not oppose the talk, does not oppose the speaker, does not oppose (criticize) himself..."

:buddha1:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
User avatar
Sekha
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:32 am
Location: Earth
Contact:

Re: Concentration vs Mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga

Post by Sekha »

gavesako wrote: There is no contradiction in the Suttas if we do not introduced our preconceived notions about what certain terms should mean. One can have a focused mind (ekaggacitto) and still be listening to Dhamma and paying attention is an appropriate way, just as one can be in meditation with some vitakka & vicara (mental thought activity going on) and also sustain a focused attention on this process, which then leads to a deeper stillness.
:thumbsup:
Thank you, bhante. Eventually, this is what this sutta proves: the meaning of the words have become rigid over time, but they were originally more flexible. So ekaggata doesn't necessarily mean 'one-pointedness' as some (otherwise very respectable) teachers of the Vsm try to make us believe. I see this as an argument opposing the abhidhamma and Vsm stand on ekaggata as a factor of first jhana and (as a consequence) vitakka-vicara meaning 'initial and sustained application of the mind to the object'.
gavesako wrote: By the way, I think the first two factors above should be better translated: "He does not oppose the talk, does not oppose the speaker, does not oppose (criticize) himself..."
Probably, I didn't pay much attention to them, I just copied Sister Upalvanna's rendering as it was not the center of my interest.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Post Reply