the great vegetarian debate

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
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tiltbillings
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Re: Meat eating

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:11 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Yes. Well, there are mountains of data that illustrate that the production of food in general involves the mass destruction of living beings.

From a purely utilitarian standpoint, it is hard to argue that a strict vegetarian diet is even close to as destructive as one based on meat; moreover, from a philosophical standpoint, it's far more reasonable to advocate a system that unintentionally results in collateral damage over one that is designed specifically to kill.
Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ben
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Ben » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:51 am

How about eating the deceased (humans)?

e92c44d2ca970b524a49ae4a2e0da1bf (1).jpg
e92c44d2ca970b524a49ae4a2e0da1bf (1).jpg (391.93 KiB) Viewed 1108 times
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: Meat eating

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:28 am

tiltbillings wrote:Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.

You honestly don't see a difference between harvesting non-living things, incapable of suffering, in ways that result in the death of lesser beings, and killing living beings directly to eat their dead bodies? There isn't even the slightest bit of difference between those two?

It hardly matters anyway, considering that the meat industry is not an alternative but an addition to industrial agriculture; after all, what do you think we feed to cows to make them nice and fat?
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Meat eating

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:19 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Naw. Once you know that what you eat entails death and a lot of it, you know. Trying to say that this death is of lesser importance than that death is self-serving.

You honestly don't see a difference between harvesting non-living things, incapable of suffering, in ways that result in the death of lesser beings, and killing living beings directly to eat their dead bodies? There isn't even the slightest bit of difference between those two?
I am not talking about harvesting non-living things. The act of planting and maintaining and harvesting grains, for example, is highly destructive of "lesser beings" and has a detrimental, deadly, impact, on the environment. And you are going to distinguish between "lesser beings," such as insects, rodents, birds, and other such mammals and such that are directly impacted by farming and "higher beings" such as cattle and sheep? Life is predicated upon death.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DAWN
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Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:40 am

It's impossible to delete all harm, it's possible to minimize it as it possible. Termodinamic law dont allow us to exist without any distruction.

A cow eat 25 pounds of corn per day (11.36kg), one meal per day is about 100g (0.22 Lbs).
By simple calcul we see that for feed one cow, we can feed 100 monks.

http://www.youaskandy.com/questions-ans ... -eat-.html
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Ben
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Ben » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:53 am

DAWN wrote:It's impossible to delete all harm, it's possible to minimize it as it possible. Termodinamic law dont allow us to exist without any distruction.

A cow eat 25 pounds of corn per day (11.36kg), one meal per day is about 100g (0.22 Lbs).
By simple calcul we see that for feed one cow, we can feed 100 monks.

http://www.youaskandy.com/questions-ans ... -eat-.html


And how many people will one cow feed?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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DAWN
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Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:57 am

Ben wrote:
DAWN wrote:It's impossible to delete all harm, it's possible to minimize it as it possible. Termodinamic law dont allow us to exist without any distruction.

A cow eat 25 pounds of corn per day (11.36kg), one meal per day is about 100g (0.22 Lbs).
By simple calcul we see that for feed one cow, we can feed 100 monks.

http://www.youaskandy.com/questions-ans ... -eat-.html


And how many people will one cow feed?


If i understand rightly your queestion,
One cow can eat 2 humans per day :)
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Cittasanto
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:24 am

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:hopefully this will clear up the relevance.


Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.
But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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DAWN
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Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:07 am

We have to stop to be so egocentric...

My intention, my kamma, my ass bla bla bla... and the fact that some living beings die, we have no metter.

Very good, very good. The Lord Buddha would be pride of us.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Mr Man
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Mr Man » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:00 am

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:hopefully this will clear up the relevance.


Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.
But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.


So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

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Cittasanto
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:28 am

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Thanks Cittasanto, I knew what was being refered to but I do not see it's relevance to my comment. Is it meant as a rebuttal?

I can not speak for RobertK.
But in my opinion section 13 does show we are not responsible for future actions, after the fact, for our intent to buy food. It is our intention that matters not another's possible actions.


So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?
but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Cittasanto
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:32 am

DAWN wrote:We have to stop to be so egocentric...

My intention, my kamma, my ass bla bla bla... and the fact that some living beings die, we have no metter.

Very good, very good. The Lord Buddha would be pride of us.

the world is ourselves in the Buddhas teaching and it is ourselves that we correct instead of pointing the finger at others.
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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Mr Man
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Mr Man » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:09 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?
but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.


Cittasanto, you don't seem to have answed my question.

To answer your question; of couse I can see the difference between my own actions and those of another but I also know there is relationship.

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DAWN
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Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:26 pm

:|
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Cittasanto
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Re: Meat eating

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Nov 17, 2012 2:46 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
Mr Man wrote:

So can you not see a connection between the eating of meat and the killing of animals?

on a business plan level, but can you not see the difference in ones own and another's actions?
but what I can or can not see has no relation on what the Buddha taught on the matter of responsibility for ones own actions.


Cittasanto, you don't seem to have answed my question.

To answer your question; of couse I can see the difference between my own actions and those of another but I also know there is relationship.

from previous expressions of others this "relationship" is placed to close together by equating buying food with oneself directly killing when this is not happening.
but to clarify my short response earlier (sorry for delay I had to run out)
There is a connection on a Business plan level, i.e. the level in which we have no say or control. there are several factors that are accounted for here, from sales period to year on year analysis and projections based on current sales trends in previous weeks and months and current stock levels. this is wrong livelihood and it is here that the connection is.
“Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.
(The mendicants asked) What are the two [types of persons]?
(The Lord Buddha responded) The malicious, or the inwardly angry, and the one with (blind) faith or the one who holds things incorrectly.
Mendicants, these two [types of persons] defame the Tathāgata.”
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
"Others will misconstrue reality based on personal perspectives, firmly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our personal perspectives, nor firmly holding them, but easily discarded."

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DAWN
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:22 pm

Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:00 pm

Imagine that there is some theif, who come into your home and steal somethink that have a very big importance to you, some unic object, that only you have it, the vase that you made with your dead parents when you was little, the vase on wich we can see their prints...
This wase were stolen by this theif, and he sell it to some one.
It was a tragedy for you, horrible moment.
And once, you go for a dinner for your new friend, who love rare and unic objects. So taking a meal with him at his home, he tell you that his beatifull and very expensive collection comes frome some one who can get it, but he dont care, because he pay fot it, he pay many money because he knows that this man make all very clear, and so he has never any problem with object from him.
Your friend was very rich and very powerfull, he was proud of him self, and to show you his wealth, he said:
- Watch at me, how i'am powerfull and ritch, now i will take my favorite vase, the last one what i bought for 5 billion dollars, and i will broke it ! blow it off ! So he take your vase and blow it off

What you will do ? Tell me please...
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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DAWN
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Re: Meat eating

Postby DAWN » Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:54 pm

Verse 129: All are afraid of the stick, all fear death. Putting oneself in another's place, one should not beat or kill others.
Verse 130: All are afraid of the stick, all hold their lives dear. Putting oneself in another's place, one should not beat or kill others.

Verse 131: He who seeks his own happiness by oppressing others, who also desire to have happiness, will not find happiness in his next existence.
Verse 132: He who seeks his own happiness by not oppressing others, who also desire to have happiness, will find happiness in his next existence.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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daverupa
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Indian Textbook Claims Meat Eaters...

Postby daverupa » Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:39 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20354669

Meat-eaters "easily cheat, lie, forget promises and commit sex crimes", according to a controversial school textbook available in India.

...

"The strongest argument that meat is not essential food is the fact that the Creator of this Universe did not include meat in the original diet for Adam and Eve. He gave them fruits, nuts and vegetables," reads a chapter entitled Do We Need Flesh Food?


:jawdrop:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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cooran
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Re: Indian Textbook Claims Meat Eaters...

Postby cooran » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:03 am

Hello dave,

Well .... it's true. BUT Vegetarians and Vegans also "easily cheat, lie, forget promises and commit sex crimes". :jumping:

One wonders why a textbook for Indian Schools is quoting as proof a jewish/christian story about Adam and Eve. :thinking: I didn't think that couple were part of the Hindu culture?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: Indian Textbook Claims Meat Eaters...

Postby Ben » Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:28 am

cooran wrote:Hello dave,

Well .... it's true. BUT Vegetarians and Vegans also "easily cheat, lie, forget promises and commit sex crimes". :jumping:

One wonders why a textbook for Indian Schools is quoting as proof a jewish/christian story about Adam and Eve. :thinking: I didn't think that couple were part of the Hindu culture?

with metta
Chris


Its not surprising.
The propensity to warp scientific and historical facts to one's political, religious or other deeply-held view is something that is not unique to the militant-lunatics from the vegie-fringe on the sub-continent.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..


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