Difference between Citta and Brahma?

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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:20 pm

daverupa wrote:The thing is, the word isn't being used to describe nibbana, it's being used to qualify the holy life. You seem, still, to think of nibbana as a special thing, when the term is actually already a metaphor, one that refers to the absence of certain things - not the presence of certain things. It is not a metaphor for stability, as you say.


I see.

You say that the word ground it used to discribe the holly life, but it's clear that Nibbana as ground, ground of holy life.
"For, Radha, the holy life is lived with Nibbana as its ground"
And i repeat my question, is "holy life" a dhamma? Peoples never respond to my question so i will respond myself, YES, holy life is dhamma, like all fenomena. So if Nibbana is like a ground, fondation of holy life, why all others dhammas have no Nibbana as it's fondation?
And i repeat my other question, why dhamma is called "dhamma"? Because it's The Dhamma, and The Dhamma is Nibbana, so dhamma, etymologicaly, have Nibbana as its fondation.

Also you say that Nibbana it's absance of some things, it's true, this whats i say, and because it have no any substance, because it is no any fenomena, that why it's stable, permanent.
All fenomenas are impermanent, Nibbana is not any fenomena, it's permanent.

So actualy, by saing that it's permanent, i say that it's have nothnig, have no any impermanent fenomena. I say that Nibbana is nothing, not because i'am nihilist, for me Nibbana=Samsara, Nibbana is non-dual because it's not-created, and if its not-created it's have no beggining and no and, infinity, and if it's infinity it's ALL, there is no two infinity, it's impossible... but because what is called Nibbana is free from all fenomena, from all form/feeling/perception/volitional formations/consciosness, free from impermanence.

Is the canvas is free from drawn picture? Yes.
Is canvas drawn(created)? No
It's canvas is nature of picture? Yes.
Picture have canvas as its ground? Yes.
Can we draw canvas on canvas? No.

Is silence is free from noize? Yes.
Is silence spoken (created)? No.
Is silence is nature of noize? Yes.
Noize have silence as it's ground? Yes
Can silence be spoken? No.

It's the same with Nibbana and fenomenas.

Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.

Even logicaly it's simple to understand. Isn't it? :shrug:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:32 pm

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:
What i missunderstand?
What is Nibbana?
What i claim?
What is Buddha teaching?
All of it, it would seem. You might want to not pay too much attention to the your inner voice. It is leading you down the garden path.


I ask you second time, please dont respond by evasion.

What i missunderstand?
What is Nibbana?
What i claim?
What is Buddha teaching?
The problem is that you do not listen. What you misunderstand is a very fundamental aspect of the Buddha's teachings that theres no ground, no zero, no "stability" from which things arise. You have not shown that to be the case, but what you have shown to be the caseis that you are quite willing to read into the Buddha's teachings your groundless assumptions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:35 pm

DAWN wrote:Buddha said that i have right view
Your view:


Buddha Nature is nothing.
Like a zero that makes numbers and all mathematics exist, zero can't be devide (unity=interdependance), zero can't be multiply (infinity), cant be create, cant be distruct. ( §14. §15. Ajhan Mun : Heart Released http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eased.html )
Like a canvas that let the picture be.
Like a silence that let noize exist in it
Like a ground that let us move on it
Unconditioned, not-created, beyond, absolute purity, pure of all fenomena, nature of all fenomena, condition to all fenomena... (Ud 8.4 / Ud 8.3...)
That is not quiteright view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:55 pm

DAWN wrote:
daverupa wrote:The thing is, the word isn't being used to describe nibbana, it's being used to qualify the holy life. You seem, still, to think of nibbana as a special thing, when the term is actually already a metaphor, one that refers to the absence of certain things - not the presence of certain things. It is not a metaphor for stability, as you say.


I see.

You say that the word ground it used to discribe the holly life, but it's clear that Nibbana as ground, ground of holy life.
"For, Radha, the holy life is lived with Nibbana as its ground"
Daverupa gave you an answer that is appropriate and accurate to the context of the passage in question. You are continuing to read your metaphysical point of view into the text in a way that the sutta (or any sutta) does not support. The text is simply saying that striving for nibbana -- the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion -- is the basis for the holy life.
And i repeat my question, is "holy life" a dhamma?
Which is to ask: Is the holy life a singular thing?

Also you say that Nibbana it's absance of some things, it's true, this whats i say, and because it have no any substance, because it is no any fenomena, that why it's stable, permanent.
All fenomenas are impermanent, Nibbana is not any fenomena, it's permanent.
The porblem here is that you are assuming that nibbana is some sort of independent thing, self-existing thing. This is not what the suttas teach.

So actualy, by saing that it's permanent, i say that it's have nothnig, have no any impermanent fenomena. I say that Nibbana is nothing, not because i'am nihilist, for me Nibbana=Samsara, Nibbana is non-dual because it's not-created, and if its not-created it's have no beggining and no and, infinity, and if it's infinity it's ALL, there is no two infinity, it's impossible... but because what is called Nibbana is free from all fenomena, from all form/feeling/perception/volitional formations/consciosness, free from impermanence.
You are on the wrong forum. You might find a better home here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/

Is the canvas is free from drawn picture? Yes.
Is canvas drawn(created)? No
It's canvas is nature of picture? Yes.
Picture have canvas as its ground? Yes.
Can we draw canvas on canvas? No.
Nibbana is not a cavass, nor is it a ground.

It's the same with Nibbana and fenomenas.
Not according to the Pali suttas.

Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.

Even logicaly it's simple to understand. Isn't it?
And never mind your wrongly grounded assumptions.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:02 pm

Ok.

Then just answer me, Nibbana is permanent or impermanent in Pali canon?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:11 pm

DAWN wrote:Ok.

Then just answer me, is Nibbana is permanent or impermanent?
The arahant who experiences the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusiuon, who is cooled, whose fire of passions has gone out, will not experience those things again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Ok.

Then just answer me, is Nibbana is permanent or impermanent?
The arahant who experiences the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusiuon, who is cooled, whose fire of passions has gone out, will not experience those things again.


It's great, because if Nibbana is not object to change and unborn, so we are agree, you and me.
The rest have no importance.

Thanks you for this discussion.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:25 pm

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Ok.

Then just answer me, is Nibbana is permanent or impermanent?
The arahant who experiences the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusiuon, who is cooled, whose fire of passions has gone out, will not experience those things again.


It's great, because if Nibbana is not object to change and unborn, so we are agree, you and me.
The rest have no importance.
You missed the point of what I said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:33 pm

Destruction of greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm

DAWN wrote:Greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Do greed, hatred, and delusion exist separate from, outside the individual who is experiencing them, who is conditioned by them?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Do greed, hatred, and delusion exist separate from, outside the individual who is experiencing them, who is conditioned by them?


Not of corse. It's a subjectif illusion caused by contact and enfluenced (directed) by volitional formations. Subject/ego is conditioned by it.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby daverupa » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:53 pm

DAWN wrote:Not of corse.


Yes, or no?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:54 pm

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Do greed, hatred, and delusion exist separate from, outside the individual who is experiencing them, who is conditioned by them?


Not of corse. It's a subjectif illusion caused by contact and enfluenced (directed) by volitional formations. Subject/ego is conditioned by it.
And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:55 pm

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:Not of corse.


Yes, or no?
Being generous, I read it as: "of course not."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby equilibrium » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:34 pm

Dawn wrote:The Dhamma is Nibbana.

Dhamma is the apple tree.....Nibbana is the apple.....The teaching of the Dhamma will lead one to Nibbana.....it is the "fruits" of the teaching.....they are clearly NOT the same thing.
Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.

The mind must first "realize" before Nibbana can be experienced.....if it is "beyond the mind" then it must not be possible to experience it?

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:13 am

tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.


Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:25 am

equilibrium wrote:
Dawn wrote:The Dhamma is Nibbana.

Dhamma is the apple tree.....Nibbana is the apple.....The teaching of the Dhamma will lead one to Nibbana.....it is the "fruits" of the teaching.....they are clearly NOT the same thing.
Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.

The mind must first "realize" before Nibbana can be experienced.....if it is "beyond the mind" then it must not be possible to experience it?


If we compare Nibbana to fruit, so it's impermanent, subject to change and suffering. Why? Because conditioned, apear, and decay, like all fruit (fenomena) of Dhamma Tree.
What aspect of Nibbana you would like to show by this similie? Perharps i dont see the same in it.

Dhamma is the law, law of mouvement of fenomenas, fenomenas are conditioned by this law. If Nibbana is conditioned by Dhamma, so Nibbana is impermanent fenomena. Is Nibbana impermanent? No.
If we take the same similie, i see thus : Fruit is fenomena, Tree is Dhamma, Ground is Nibbana.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:53 am

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.


Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
And what is the "mind"?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.


Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
And what is the "mind"?


Some kind of mix between consciosness, volitional fomations, perceptions (but if we take Dhammapada Verse1, and read it on pali, we can see that all dhamma is mind-made. Manopubbangama dhamma,manosettha manomaya,manasa ce padutthena)
Here, in answer "who has experiances such", mind mean consciosness.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english

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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:25 am

DAWN wrote:
Some kind of mix between consciosness, volitional fomations, perceptions (but if we take Dhammapada Verse1, and read it on pali, we can see that all dhamma is mind-made. Manopubbangama dhamma,manosettha manomaya,manasa ce padutthena)
Here, in answer "who has experiances such", mind mean consciosness.
You can get a speller-checker with a Google tool bar. It would help.

    But that which is called 'mind' [citta] and 'mentality' [mano] and 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ] arises as one thing and ceases as another . . . . -- S II 95 CDB i 595.
The point here is that mano, as with the other two, is a conditioned, conditioning functioning process, and what we would call "mind" is either mano or citta or viññāṇaṃ, which are terms used to talk about the same conditioned/conditioning causally arisen process in different contexts. Your above "Some" sentence is a bit confused. Do you know what a "dhamma" is in relation to 'mind' [citta] or 'mentality' [mano] or 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ]?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
If the "mind" goes from a calm state to one affected by greed, hatred, and delusion, it is not pure, it is not really pure even in the "calm state." The conditioning factors of greed, hatred, and delusion are still present. It is only when the process we call the "mind" is free of greed, hatred, and delusion -- destroyed by insight -- is the "mind" truly pure.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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