Chakras

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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:17 am

Raksha wrote:
daverupa wrote:For a modern approach which sees a Western empiricist practicing Chinese exercises and seeing Hindu gods, try reading Path Notes.
(It takes me back about 15 years; these are some old neurons firing to call up these titles; the single tattoo I have is related to Path Notes adventures...)


Sensei Glenn Morris :sage: R.I.P.


April 1st, no less! What a joker.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Postby marc108 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:27 am

this is particular area of interest from me. I came from a Yogic background to Buddhism and noticed a lot of similarities but that the teachings on the chakras were missing... my personal opinion is that the Buddha was concerned primarily with liberation and teaching on & manipulation of the chakras isn't part of that path necessarily.

the chakras are part of the body, and should be treated as such re: mindfulness of the body. worrying about you or anything else effecting your chakras is about as useful as worrying about catching a cold. the conscious control of an untrained person over their energy system is about as much as over your heart... nearly nothing. the idea that you may have opened, or unbalanced a chakra is strictly a product of new age bastardization & isnt (to my knowledge) found in the traditional teachings.

that being said I've found the practices extremely useful in general, as well as with my current practice. Yoga & Qigong are the most refined, and imo best, systems to study if you can find a legitimate teacher (which is hard). There are Buddhist teachers as well who teach about somatic energies and their usage, re: Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo, & Ajahn Succito They have, again imo, a much more practical and useful teaching on the subject than you will find otherwise.

Worrying that a thought may or negative feeling will 'infect' you is pointless. Intrusive or negative thoughts, in my experience, are much more effectively dealt with the methods taught in MN20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el021.html.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Chakras

Postby Tom » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:20 am

Thank You all for your responses. I think I should clarify what I meant by my "negative thought". I really hope I'm not being confusing here, because this is something that's seriously been worrying me, and I would greatly appreciate advice: I meant that when I was doing the visualizations (and by visualization, I don't mean that I was simply thinking about my body from an outside perspective and imagining white light being released, it was more as if I was making an internal visualization and focusing my awareness on the area I was working with), focusing on the feeling of releasing/relaxing a certain chakra area, and trying to visualize and "feel" white light being released and radiating out from that area, I had a sudden worry (pretty superstitious) that what if some demonic entity entered the chakra and possessed me, and I then had an intrusive visualization of "black energy" or "demons" or "pentagrams" being absorbed in that area, and an intrusive thought of the sentence "A demon is possessing me" or "I am possessed". My reaction to this was to tighten the area because I was worried I was letting this "negative energy" in and giving it potential to manifest, and to then attempt to relax the area again and counter it with the white light visualization, although the intrusive thoughts/visualizations kept getting in the way, so I never felt as if it was satisfactorily "countered" or that the potential for the intrusive thought's/visualization's to manifest or affect my life was ever completely erased. This is what I meant by a "negative thought" worrying me. In this case would it actually be something to worry about, or should I still follow the advice you all are giving? Should I actually try and hold the white light visualization (without any intrusive thoughts/visualizations) until I feel satisfied? (which hasn't really worked because the intrusive thoughts always get in the way) Or should I just let go of this whole "counter" visualization idea? I really hope I haven't negatively affected my life in some way because of this, aside from the anxiety it's created.
Last edited by Tom on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:26 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Chakras

Postby DAWN » Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:29 am

Negative energy is created by your own mind.

If your sila (morality) is good, you will be never experiance such kind of negativity. Develop your sila, do good things. :group:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:49 am

daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.

So, is your official position that the Dhamma and chakras are mutually exclusive?
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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:14 am

danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.

So, is your official position that the Dhamma and chakras are mutually exclusive?


At least inasmuch as any two fields of knowledge cannot be pursued to the extent that one of them could be, if favored with time and energy. The Dhamma isn't necessarily easy - mental real estate is at a premium... dhammas proliferate with ease...

In any event, we are advised to calm kaya-sankhara, not multiply them and do esoteric maths.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Chakras

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:50 pm

daverupa wrote:To really dive into this stuff in a Buddhist context (and to get up to your eyes in mummy dust and crazy ideas), have a look at The Bodhisattva Warriors: The Origin, Inner Philosophy, History and Symbolism of the Buddhist Martial Art Within India and China.

For a modern approach which sees a Western empiricist practicing Chinese exercises and seeing Hindu gods, try reading Path Notes.

Not very authoritative or comprehensive sources. Little wonder your knowledge of the subject revolves around "mummy dust and crazy ideas."
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Re: Chakras

Postby Raksha » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:54 pm

It's true that Terry Dukes has no academic credibility. For an authoritative version of the same subject:
Stewart McFarlane, ‘Fighting Bodhisattvas and Inner Warriors: Buddhism and the Martial Traditions of China and Japan’ The Buddhist Forum, Vol. 3, 1994.
As for the late Dr. Glenn Morris, in his own field he was both comprehensive and authoritative. His premature death was a great loss to the study of Ninjutsu, and on a personal level to his many students and friends around the world. May I ask what your own qualifications are in these subjects that allow you to dismiss his work in such an arbitrary manner? Have you even read any of his books?
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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:57 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:your knowledge of the subject revolves around "mummy dust and crazy ideas."


Does it? Where is "my knowledge of the subject" displayed in a revolving manner, as you indicate?

I suspect there's a sacred cow with an abrasion, somewhere...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Chakras

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:57 pm

Raksha wrote:As for the late Dr. Glenn Morris, in his own field he was both comprehensive and authoritative. His premature death was a great loss to the study of Ninjutsu, and on a personal level to his many students and friends around the world.

Morris was eclectic, idiosyncratic, and at times bizarre.

Raksha wrote:May I ask what your own qualifications are in these subjects that allow you to dismiss his work in such an arbitrary manner? Have you even read any of his books?

Yep, I've read his books. I'm not dismissing his work or being arbitrary. I said that it isn't authoritative or comprehensive, specifically, in the context of Buddhist systems of yoga.
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Re: Chakras

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:01 pm

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:your knowledge of the subject revolves around "mummy dust and crazy ideas."


Does it? Where is "my knowledge of the subject" displayed in a revolving manner, as you indicate?

I suspect there's a sacred cow with an abrasion, somewhere...

I suspect that there's a learned bias based on misinformation behind statements such as this:

daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.

And this:

daverupa wrote:At least inasmuch as any two fields of knowledge cannot be pursued to the extent that one of them could be, if favored with time and energy. The Dhamma isn't necessarily easy - mental real estate is at a premium... dhammas proliferate with ease...

In any event, we are advised to calm kaya-sankhara, not multiply them and do esoteric maths.

There are no sacred cows in Buddhism, and that includes your sacred cow of a pristine, early Buddhism fully explicated in the suttas.
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Re: Chakras

Postby marc108 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:03 am

ccharles wrote: what if some demonic entity entered the chakra and possessed me, and I then had an intrusive visualization of "black energy" or "demons" or "pentagrams" being absorbed in that area, and an intrusive thought of the sentence "A demon is possessing me" or "I am possessed". My reaction to this was to tighten the area because I was worried I was letting this "negative energy" in and giving it potential to manifest, and to then attempt to relax the area again and counter it with the white light visualization, although the intrusive thoughts/visualizations kept getting in the way, so I never felt as if it was satisfactorily "countered" or that the potential for the intrusive thought's/visualization's to manifest or affect my life was ever completely erased.



really the point here i think is that nothing actually happened to you or your chakras... this entire idea doesnt find root in traditional teachings, only in new-agey stuff. what your describing sounds like anxiety... an intrusive though brought up some fear and caused papanca around it. basic, western Vipassana style labeling of thoughts can really go a long way for learning to gain some control over that process.

if you're finding the chakra stuff is causing you anxiety, which is does for many, then stop. traditionally, these are not teachings you would find being given to beginners... the focus would be on developing virtue & meditation first,
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:10 am

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.

So, is your official position that the Dhamma and chakras are mutually exclusive?


At least inasmuch as any two fields of knowledge cannot be pursued to the extent that one of them could be, if favored with time and energy. The Dhamma isn't necessarily easy - mental real estate is at a premium... dhammas proliferate with ease...

In any event, we are advised to calm kaya-sankhara, not multiply them and do esoteric maths.

So, is your official position that calming kaya-sankhara and chakra work are mutually exclusive?
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:17 am

ccharles wrote:I don't specifically know if chakras exist or not, however if they do exist, I'd like to learn more about them and work on keeping them healthy. Does anyone here know any teachers that have a good amount of experience with chakras (or other "energy work") and could possibly help me work with them?

"Existence is a very slippery notion." -Bhikkhu Bodhi
There is no necessary connection between their "existence"/"non-existence" and their utility. Like marc108 intimated, if they're not useful, don't use them. We are privileged to have numerous tools at our disposal, and the Dhamma is neither a closed book nor a respecter of tradition.
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Re: Chakras

Postby daverupa » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:36 am

danieLion wrote:So, is your official position that calming kaya-sankhara and chakra work are mutually exclusive?


It will be best if I agree to a strong adherence to the idea when phrased in the following way:

The process of human being may or may not involve chakras; anapanasati instructions do not engage that thought realm in any way. What they do accomplish, however, is a calming of sankhara in such a way that one has made it one's object to let go, thereby enabling jhana. Chakra work is not jhana.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Chakras

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:16 am

ccharles wrote:Thank You all for your responses. I think I should clarify what I meant by my "negative thought". I really hope I'm not being confusing here, because this is something that's seriously been worrying me, and I would greatly appreciate advice: I meant that when I was doing the visualizations (and by visualization, I don't mean that I was simply thinking about my body from an outside perspective and imagining white light being released, it was more as if I was making an internal visualization and focusing my awareness on the area I was working with), focusing on the feeling of releasing/relaxing a certain chakra area, and trying to visualize and "feel" white light being released and radiating out from that area, I had a sudden worry (pretty superstitious) that what if some demonic entity entered the chakra and possessed me, and I then had an intrusive visualization of "black energy" or "demons" or "pentagrams" being absorbed in that area, and an intrusive thought of the sentence "A demon is possessing me" or "I am possessed". My reaction to this was to tighten the area because I was worried I was letting this "negative energy" in and giving it potential to manifest, and to then attempt to relax the area again and counter it with the white light visualization, although the intrusive thoughts/visualizations kept getting in the way, so I never felt as if it was satisfactorily "countered" or that the potential for the intrusive thought's/visualization's to manifest or affect my life was ever completely erased. This is what I meant by a "negative thought" worrying me. In this case would it actually be something to worry about, or should I still follow the advice you all are giving? Should I actually try and hold the white light visualization (without any intrusive thoughts/visualizations) until I feel satisfied? (which hasn't really worked because the intrusive thoughts always get in the way) Or should I just let go of this whole "counter" visualization idea? I really hope I haven't negatively affected my life in some way because of this, aside from the anxiety it's created.


For something to have hapened to your chakras, you had to have an intention for it to hapen. Think of it like this: if you had no intention whatsoever of sending positive energy to someone else but the thought of sending it just popped into your head, would you be sending another person this positive energy? Of course not! Intention is the key. You didn't have intention to do negative things with energy, so they didn't hapen.

This being said, I recomend that you see a therapist. Those intrusive thoughts could be developing sympthoms of some mental illness. The sooner you treat it, the better the outcome.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Chakras

Postby Raksha » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:44 am

Ñāṇa wrote: I said that it isn't authoritative or comprehensive, specifically, in the context of Buddhist systems of yoga.

Dr. Morris was only authoritative in terms of Ninjutsu, in particular esoteric Ninjutsu. In respect of Buddhist systems of yoga and his interpretation of kundalini yoga...I would agree with you that he should not be considered an authority. In Buddhism, chakras and what Tibetans call tsa-lung are extremely advanced teachings. I would be suprised if there were more than a score of people in the world who were qualified to teach such things. As for chakras in relation to spirit possession; if one is genuinely concerned about such things then one should discuss these concerns with a senior monk or other qualified Buddhist master, definately not with a 'therapist'.
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Re: Chakras

Postby Tom » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:03 am

Thank you so much for the responses. You've definitely brought me some relief.
Modus.Ponens wrote:This being said, I recomend that you see a therapist. Those intrusive thoughts could be developing sympthoms of some mental illness. The sooner you treat it, the better the outcome.

I think this type of thinking is within the OCD Spectrum, which I've been diagnosed with before. To be honest, I feel like I can help my self overcome this if I use the right techniques, without the need for a therapist. Is there any Dhamma teachings or meditation techniques that could help me work with this? I'm slightly turned off by modern psychiatry, so I'd prefer working on this using the Buddha's teachings.
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Re: Chakras

Postby danieLion » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:03 am

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Chakra work is not jhana.
That's probably true, but it can induce jhana, which isn't saying much more than you can't do jhana and chakra work simultaneously. However, this is different from saying chakra work is not Dhamma. The chakras may be involved in jahna. This can be doubted but not contradicted. Also, do you think jhana is exclusively Buddhist territory?
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Re: Chakras

Postby Tom » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:08 pm

Raksha wrote: As for chakras in relation to spirit possession; if one is genuinely concerned about such things then one should discuss these concerns with a senior monk or other qualified Buddhist master, definately not with a 'therapist'.
I only just noticed this response. Do you know any monks that could help me in this regard? Are you suggesting I see a Theravadan monk or some Vajrayana monk?
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