Hi Mikemikenz66 wrote:Thanks Robert,So, putting aside particular technical issues, there is the method of flying to Bangkok to discuss Dhamma, which will influence one's actions in particular directions, and there are methods of listening and discussing with other teachers and students, which will influence one's actions in different directions.robertk wrote: Soooo , this Dhamma takes time to understand: listening and considering are essential. That is why one might fly to Bangkok to listen and discuss. One might value careful study , and certainly , I believe, one will take seriously the Abhidhamma and see that the heart of the Dhamma is anatta .
As I have said, I've learned a lot from conversations with you and other KS students, and, as you know, I have attempted to take the arguments seriously. However, I am still struck by the apparent lack of logic in the claim (by some) that the approach is completely free of desires, intentions, and views.
Mike
Speaking as a keen listerner to KS, I really doubt that anyone would ever clear that they were "completely free of etc etc." Of course they wouldn't. But I think at some point it might click for some people here that the meditation industry (and that includes the noblesque ordination route) promotes practices that are by the nature of defilments in this day and age and the weakness of kusala cittas bound to be rooted in lobha with ditthi. When there is honest consideration of the cittas at work in the pursuit of insight and jhanas in "meditation" (pseudo bhavana) and the cittas inolved when listening and reflecting in an unforced way I think eventually something clicks.
Personally, I love meditation. I do it every day, it is proven to be good for the brain, and having a mum with Alzheimers, that is attractive to me. It creates pleasant mind states that make the day nice, and I do believe that it can condition certain kinds of resilience to akusala kamma patha. (I would say less harsh speech, for example, when there is a lot of meditation, there are less knee-jerk responses to stimulae. ) But oh-so-obviously rooted in the belief that there is the ability to select and control dhammas, such a lot of wrong view. And so very different from the cittas involved in listening in an unforced way. Most of the time when I listen to KS, the mind just runs on and on, and nothing sinks in. At other times, thinks click. Completely unforced, anatta. That is one reason why I personally don't get involved in internet debates/"discussions", either here or at DSG. I think they force understanding in a lobha-ditthi rooted way. I think it is best just to listen, listen, listen, and fruitful reflection (rooted in alobha) will arise, or not, no seeking control. But I may be wrong