Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Do greed, hatred, and delusion exist separate from, outside the individual who is experiencing them, who is conditioned by them?
Not of corse. It's a subjectif illusion caused by contact and enfluenced (directed) by volitional formations. Subject/ego is conditioned by it.
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daverupa
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by daverupa »

DAWN wrote:Not of corse.
Yes, or no?
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:Greed, hatered and delusion is not Nibbana?
Do greed, hatred, and delusion exist separate from, outside the individual who is experiencing them, who is conditioned by them?
Not of corse. It's a subjectif illusion caused by contact and enfluenced (directed) by volitional formations. Subject/ego is conditioned by it.
And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
DAWN wrote:Not of corse.
Yes, or no?
Being generous, I read it as: "of course not."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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equilibrium
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by equilibrium »

Dawn wrote:The Dhamma is Nibbana.
Dhamma is the apple tree.....Nibbana is the apple.....The teaching of the Dhamma will lead one to Nibbana.....it is the "fruits" of the teaching.....they are clearly NOT the same thing.
Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.
The mind must first "realize" before Nibbana can be experienced.....if it is "beyond the mind" then it must not be possible to experience it?
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.
Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

equilibrium wrote:
Dawn wrote:The Dhamma is Nibbana.
Dhamma is the apple tree.....Nibbana is the apple.....The teaching of the Dhamma will lead one to Nibbana.....it is the "fruits" of the teaching.....they are clearly NOT the same thing.
Buddha said that Nibbana can not be penetrated by thougts, by sankharas. Buddha also said that only mind is able to see Nibbana, mind can be liberated, why only mind? Because Nibbana is nature of Mind, beyond the mind, pure from all fenomenas, pure from all sankharas.
The mind must first "realize" before Nibbana can be experienced.....if it is "beyond the mind" then it must not be possible to experience it?
If we compare Nibbana to fruit, so it's impermanent, subject to change and suffering. Why? Because conditioned, apear, and decay, like all fruit (fenomena) of Dhamma Tree.
What aspect of Nibbana you would like to show by this similie? Perharps i dont see the same in it.

Dhamma is the law, law of mouvement of fenomenas, fenomenas are conditioned by this law. If Nibbana is conditioned by Dhamma, so Nibbana is impermanent fenomena. Is Nibbana impermanent? No.
If we take the same similie, i see thus : Fruit is fenomena, Tree is Dhamma, Ground is Nibbana.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.
Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
And what is the "mind"?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And so the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion do not exist outside the individual who has experienced such.
Mind ?

Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
I'am sorry, i know you dont like similies, but it's like water, if we tuch it, we have waves, if we don't tuch it, it still calm and smooth. So actualy, there is no "experciance" of destruction, because there is nothink to be destructed, but calm to be developped.
Experiance of destruction is like trying to calm water with your hand.

Mind is pure, isn't it?
And what is the "mind"?
Some kind of mix between consciosness, volitional fomations, perceptions (but if we take Dhammapada Verse1, and read it on pali, we can see that all dhamma is mind-made. Manopubbangama dhamma,manosettha manomaya,manasa ce padutthena)
Here, in answer "who has experiances such", mind mean consciosness.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

DAWN wrote:
Some kind of mix between consciosness, volitional fomations, perceptions (but if we take Dhammapada Verse1, and read it on pali, we can see that all dhamma is mind-made. Manopubbangama dhamma,manosettha manomaya,manasa ce padutthena)
Here, in answer "who has experiances such", mind mean consciosness.
You can get a speller-checker with a Google tool bar. It would help.
  • But that which is called 'mind' [citta] and 'mentality' [mano] and 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ] arises as one thing and ceases as another . . . . -- S II 95 CDB i 595.
The point here is that mano, as with the other two, is a conditioned, conditioning functioning process, and what we would call "mind" is either mano or citta or viññāṇaṃ, which are terms used to talk about the same conditioned/conditioning causally arisen process in different contexts. Your above "Some" sentence is a bit confused. Do you know what a "dhamma" is in relation to 'mind' [citta] or 'mentality' [mano] or 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ]?
Actualy, in calm state, mind is pure, is not affected by greed, hattred and delusion, it's only when he tuch something when he enter is this states.
If the "mind" goes from a calm state to one affected by greed, hatred, and delusion, it is not pure, it is not really pure even in the "calm state." The conditioning factors of greed, hatred, and delusion are still present. It is only when the process we call the "mind" is free of greed, hatred, and delusion -- destroyed by insight -- is the "mind" truly pure.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote: You can get a speller-checker with a Google tool bar. It would help.
  • But that which is called 'mind' [citta] and 'mentality' [mano] and 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ] arises as one thing and ceases as another . . . . -- S II 95 CDB i 595.
The point here is that mano, as with the other two, is a conditioned, conditioning functioning process, and what we would call "mind" is either mano or citta or viññāṇaṃ, which are terms used to talk about the same conditioned/conditioning causally arisen process in different contexts. Your above "Some" sentence is a bit confused. Do you know what a "dhamma" is in relation to 'mind' [citta] or 'mentality' [mano] or 'consciousness [viññāṇaṃ]?

If the "mind" goes from a calm state to one affected by greed, hatred, and delusion, it is not pure, it is not really pure even in the "calm state." The conditioning factors of greed, hatred, and delusion are still present. It is only when the process we call the "mind" is free of greed, hatred, and delusion -- destroyed by insight -- is the "mind" truly pure.
Yes, you are reason, mind can't be calm by definition, because it's a process, in perpetual mouvement.
So wat is calm, and what is pure?

IMO, greed, hatred and delusion are destroyed by detachement.
Insight = detachement?

Question is: why there is detachement? - Because of dukkha?
Detachement of what from what? - Of permanence from annica ? (of unborn from born (Ud.))
What is your opinion?
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

DAWN wrote: Detachement of what from what?
Greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote: Detachement of what from what?
Greed, hatred, and delusion.
I see.
Just detachement.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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tiltbillings
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by tiltbillings »

DAWN wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
DAWN wrote: Detachement of what from what?
Greed, hatred, and delusion.
I see.
Just detachement.
No detachment without insight.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DAWN
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Re: Difference between Citta and Brahma?

Post by DAWN »

tiltbillings wrote: No detachment without insight.
Intellectual insight or
practical experiance?

PS Intellectual experiance
Practical insight

:toilet:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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