Chakras

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Nyana
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Re: Chakras

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:your knowledge of the subject revolves around "mummy dust and crazy ideas."
Does it? Where is "my knowledge of the subject" displayed in a revolving manner, as you indicate?

I suspect there's a sacred cow with an abrasion, somewhere...
I suspect that there's a learned bias based on misinformation behind statements such as this:
daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.
And this:
daverupa wrote:At least inasmuch as any two fields of knowledge cannot be pursued to the extent that one of them could be, if favored with time and energy. The Dhamma isn't necessarily easy - mental real estate is at a premium... dhammas proliferate with ease...

In any event, we are advised to calm kaya-sankhara, not multiply them and do esoteric maths.
There are no sacred cows in Buddhism, and that includes your sacred cow of a pristine, early Buddhism fully explicated in the suttas.
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marc108
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Re: Chakras

Post by marc108 »

ccharles wrote: what if some demonic entity entered the chakra and possessed me, and I then had an intrusive visualization of "black energy" or "demons" or "pentagrams" being absorbed in that area, and an intrusive thought of the sentence "A demon is possessing me" or "I am possessed". My reaction to this was to tighten the area because I was worried I was letting this "negative energy" in and giving it potential to manifest, and to then attempt to relax the area again and counter it with the white light visualization, although the intrusive thoughts/visualizations kept getting in the way, so I never felt as if it was satisfactorily "countered" or that the potential for the intrusive thought's/visualization's to manifest or affect my life was ever completely erased.

really the point here i think is that nothing actually happened to you or your chakras... this entire idea doesnt find root in traditional teachings, only in new-agey stuff. what your describing sounds like anxiety... an intrusive though brought up some fear and caused papanca around it. basic, western Vipassana style labeling of thoughts can really go a long way for learning to gain some control over that process.

if you're finding the chakra stuff is causing you anxiety, which is does for many, then stop. traditionally, these are not teachings you would find being given to beginners... the focus would be on developing virtue & meditation first,
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
danieLion
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Re: Chakras

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:If you are interested in chakras, you are going to become distracted from the Dhamma, but to each their own.
So, is your official position that the Dhamma and chakras are mutually exclusive?
At least inasmuch as any two fields of knowledge cannot be pursued to the extent that one of them could be, if favored with time and energy. The Dhamma isn't necessarily easy - mental real estate is at a premium... dhammas proliferate with ease...

In any event, we are advised to calm kaya-sankhara, not multiply them and do esoteric maths.
So, is your official position that calming kaya-sankhara and chakra work are mutually exclusive?
danieLion
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Re: Chakras

Post by danieLion »

ccharles wrote:I don't specifically know if chakras exist or not, however if they do exist, I'd like to learn more about them and work on keeping them healthy. Does anyone here know any teachers that have a good amount of experience with chakras (or other "energy work") and could possibly help me work with them?
"Existence is a very slippery notion." -Bhikkhu Bodhi
There is no necessary connection between their "existence"/"non-existence" and their utility. Like marc108 intimated, if they're not useful, don't use them. We are privileged to have numerous tools at our disposal, and the Dhamma is neither a closed book nor a respecter of tradition.
daverupa
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Re: Chakras

Post by daverupa »

danieLion wrote:So, is your official position that calming kaya-sankhara and chakra work are mutually exclusive?
It will be best if I agree to a strong adherence to the idea when phrased in the following way:

The process of human being may or may not involve chakras; anapanasati instructions do not engage that thought realm in any way. What they do accomplish, however, is a calming of sankhara in such a way that one has made it one's object to let go, thereby enabling jhana. Chakra work is not jhana.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Chakras

Post by Modus.Ponens »

ccharles wrote:Thank You all for your responses. I think I should clarify what I meant by my "negative thought". I really hope I'm not being confusing here, because this is something that's seriously been worrying me, and I would greatly appreciate advice: I meant that when I was doing the visualizations (and by visualization, I don't mean that I was simply thinking about my body from an outside perspective and imagining white light being released, it was more as if I was making an internal visualization and focusing my awareness on the area I was working with), focusing on the feeling of releasing/relaxing a certain chakra area, and trying to visualize and "feel" white light being released and radiating out from that area, I had a sudden worry (pretty superstitious) that what if some demonic entity entered the chakra and possessed me, and I then had an intrusive visualization of "black energy" or "demons" or "pentagrams" being absorbed in that area, and an intrusive thought of the sentence "A demon is possessing me" or "I am possessed". My reaction to this was to tighten the area because I was worried I was letting this "negative energy" in and giving it potential to manifest, and to then attempt to relax the area again and counter it with the white light visualization, although the intrusive thoughts/visualizations kept getting in the way, so I never felt as if it was satisfactorily "countered" or that the potential for the intrusive thought's/visualization's to manifest or affect my life was ever completely erased. This is what I meant by a "negative thought" worrying me. In this case would it actually be something to worry about, or should I still follow the advice you all are giving? Should I actually try and hold the white light visualization (without any intrusive thoughts/visualizations) until I feel satisfied? (which hasn't really worked because the intrusive thoughts always get in the way) Or should I just let go of this whole "counter" visualization idea? I really hope I haven't negatively affected my life in some way because of this, aside from the anxiety it's created.
For something to have hapened to your chakras, you had to have an intention for it to hapen. Think of it like this: if you had no intention whatsoever of sending positive energy to someone else but the thought of sending it just popped into your head, would you be sending another person this positive energy? Of course not! Intention is the key. You didn't have intention to do negative things with energy, so they didn't hapen.

This being said, I recomend that you see a therapist. Those intrusive thoughts could be developing sympthoms of some mental illness. The sooner you treat it, the better the outcome.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Raksha
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Re: Chakras

Post by Raksha »

Ñāṇa wrote: I said that it isn't authoritative or comprehensive, specifically, in the context of Buddhist systems of yoga.
Dr. Morris was only authoritative in terms of Ninjutsu, in particular esoteric Ninjutsu. In respect of Buddhist systems of yoga and his interpretation of kundalini yoga...I would agree with you that he should not be considered an authority. In Buddhism, chakras and what Tibetans call tsa-lung are extremely advanced teachings. I would be suprised if there were more than a score of people in the world who were qualified to teach such things. As for chakras in relation to spirit possession; if one is genuinely concerned about such things then one should discuss these concerns with a senior monk or other qualified Buddhist master, definately not with a 'therapist'.
Tom
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Re: Chakras

Post by Tom »

Thank you so much for the responses. You've definitely brought me some relief.
Modus.Ponens wrote: This being said, I recomend that you see a therapist. Those intrusive thoughts could be developing sympthoms of some mental illness. The sooner you treat it, the better the outcome.
I think this type of thinking is within the OCD Spectrum, which I've been diagnosed with before. To be honest, I feel like I can help my self overcome this if I use the right techniques, without the need for a therapist. Is there any Dhamma teachings or meditation techniques that could help me work with this? I'm slightly turned off by modern psychiatry, so I'd prefer working on this using the Buddha's teachings.
danieLion
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Re: Chakras

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Chakra work is not jhana.
That's probably true, but it can induce jhana, which isn't saying much more than you can't do jhana and chakra work simultaneously. However, this is different from saying chakra work is not Dhamma. The chakras may be involved in jahna. This can be doubted but not contradicted. Also, do you think jhana is exclusively Buddhist territory?
Tom
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Re: Chakras

Post by Tom »

Raksha wrote: As for chakras in relation to spirit possession; if one is genuinely concerned about such things then one should discuss these concerns with a senior monk or other qualified Buddhist master, definately not with a 'therapist'.
I only just noticed this response. Do you know any monks that could help me in this regard? Are you suggesting I see a Theravadan monk or some Vajrayana monk?
daverupa
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Re: Chakras

Post by daverupa »

danieLion wrote:
daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:Chakra work is not jhana.
That's probably true, but it can induce jhana, which isn't saying much more than you can't do jhana and chakra work simultaneously. However, this is different from saying chakra work is not Dhamma. The chakras may be involved in jahna. This can be doubted but not contradicted.
With the above, you are struggling to shift the burden of proof. Chakras as an idea can be dated to what, the 7th century CE? If you want to tell me that the Buddha was talking about them in any way, you've got a long row to hoe.

And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument! Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.
Also, do you think jhana is exclusively Buddhist territory?
This goes far beyond the scope of the thread.

It all does, really.

:focus:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Raksha
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Re: Chakras

Post by Raksha »

ccharles wrote:Do you know any monks that could help me in this regard? Are you suggesting I see a Theravadan monk or some Vajrayana monk?
Ideally you should consult with a Buddhist teacher with whom you are already familiar, and if they are unable to help, then they might be able to recommend someone. Vajrayana masters are usually obstructively silent on such matters, particularly with Westerners, and Theravada monks are often afflicted with a kind of quasi-Western scientific viewpoint that leads them to try to deny anything supernatural, so as not to appear foolish and backward, particularly in front of Westerners. However, if you put forward your request for help repeatedly, in simple terms, and with complete sincerity then they should help you.
Nyana
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Re: Chakras

Post by Nyana »

daverupa wrote:And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument!
Tummo practices can certainly induce the jhāna factors.
daverupa wrote:Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. However, there are Buddhist yogis in this world who are remarkable monks and exceptional meditators and are living examples of the effectiveness of trulkhor, tsalung, and tummo practices.
Tom
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Re: Chakras

Post by Tom »

Raksha wrote: However, if you put forward your request for help repeatedly, in simple terms, and with complete sincerity then they should help you.
I want to make it clear though I am not at all saying I am experiencing anything supernatural, I was just simply experiencing intrusive thoughts/visualizations, while I was attempting to visualize white light radiating out of my chakras, that made me worry if they could have some negative effect on me or manifest in my life somehow. In your opinion, do you think this is something to be seriously worried about, or is it probably just unnecessary anxiety?
danieLion
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Re: Chakras

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:If you want to tell me that the Buddha was talking about them in any way, you've got a long row to hoe.
I don't want to tell you that. But I do want to tell you that just because the Buddha didn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't Dhamma or that he was unaware of them.
daverupa wrote:And the claim that working with them is an alternative entrée to jhana is quite an argument! Let's hear how you would make the case for such a thing.
I didn't claim that I don't think they're an alternative to Right Concentration. However, I see no problem with using them to gladden the mind during anapanasati, or to aid one in to getting into jhana.
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